Search for Meaning with Dr. Alvin Sturdivant

In this episode of What Makes Us..., Dr. Alvin Sturdivant, Vice President of Student Affairs and Inclusive Excellence at the University of Portland, guides a profound exploration into the evolving journey of meaning-making, rooted in our connections to family, faith, community, and history. He recounts how his grandmother instilled an early understanding of self-defined purpose, a foundation strengthened by his Pentecostal spirituality, providing enduring resilience.

Dr. Sturdivant emphasizes the interconnectedness of this search, highlighting how we build upon the legacies of past generations, transforming meaning-making from an individual pursuit to a shared endeavor relevant to today's challenges. His insights extend to the power of bridging divides, illustrating how meaningful relationships can blossom from open-mindedness. Offering valuable guidance for educators, parents, and community leaders, he underscores the importance of cultivating critical thinking and exposure to diverse perspectives in young people, empowering them to navigate an increasingly complex world and forge their own authentic meaning.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:09

Welcome to what Makes Us. This is a podcast exploring in how we develop as people through our experiences and connections between individuals, with groups and amongst society. We'll be bringing on guests to discuss how they've come to be who they are and along the way, we may end up learning something about ourselves. So please sit back and enjoy. You're listening to what Makes Us. Welcome to what Makes Us. Today, our topic is search for meaning and I am super delighted to be able to have my friend and I don't know it's like multiple levels here Friend, mentor, former boss of boss and just all around amazing person, dr Alvin Sturtevant. Alvin, say hello to our listeners what's up folks?

Speaker 2 1:08

I'm so happy to be here and be a part of brian's podcast and looking forward to where this conversation goes today yeah, it's, it's gonna be amazing, right?

Dr. Alvin Sturtevant's Professional Journey

Speaker 1 1:18

so how long have we? We've known each other. We've known each other for like eight, known each other for over 18 plus years.

Speaker 2 1:24

I think Easily that I think 2007?

Speaker 1 1:31

No, it was longer, than that Is that when you came to UVM, yeah, 2007.

Speaker 2 1:37

So 18 years ago, you came into my world and turned it upside down.

Speaker 1 1:43

I can say that to you. I can legitimately say that to you, I'm and turned it upside down. I can say that to you I can legitimately say that to you I'm turning my world upside down.

Speaker 2 1:52

I would say in a very good way, as we are still here Absolutely in the best possible way. There's no doubt about that.

Speaker 1 1:59

So just give the listeners sorry. Hopefully we'll edit that. So give the listeners a little bit about who you are.

Speaker 2 2:06

Dr Alvin Servak currently is the vice president, student affairs and inclusive excellence at the University of Portland as of February 1st Congratulations, thank you. You know it's been a whirlwind here. The, you know, actually today marked two full months in this new role, where I serve as both the senior student affairs officer and the senior diversity officer for the university, and so you know, like all new things like drinking from a fire hose, in particular, given all the things that are happening with the US government right now and moving to a new city where my wife isn't quite here yet either it's been quite the ride and really excited for where this next adventure will take us, but it's just really getting started.

Speaker 1 2:55

Yeah, and you also just received an amazing honor from the Student Affairs Association, the NASPA Association, of being a pillar of the profession. So I also want to say congratulations and announce that to the world, because on a podcast it stays forever. So I just want to make sure that that's out there.

Speaker 2 3:13

I appreciate that. You know. Certainly I'm humbled by the recognition, but also acknowledge that it does not belong to me alone, that it really belongs to all those that I've had the benefit of working with you, included throughout my career, all the students who've allowed me to journey alongside them in all the campuses that I've had the great pleasure of working at through my near 30-year career 30-year career.

Speaker 1 3:39

That's, I mean that's, that says a lot. That's, I mean that's, that says a lot.

Speaker 2 3:43

It's impossible sometimes to imagine that it's been that long, but when I do the math it's it's really clear that it has absolutely been just that and the gray hairs have come along with it. So absolutely. I'm right there, at almost 30, 27 to be more exact, but very fast, quickly approaching 30.

Speaker 1 4:08

Yeah, I, as we talk about gray hairs. So I went and got a haircut yesterday. Of course, this is completely different than our, our conversation today. And I, you know, I told the guy, I always get a fade. I, you know, I don't get anything crazy, I always get a fade. I'm like, you know, hook me up with the fade, he does the fade and I'm like where's the line? It's all great, where's my fade line? And then I started to realize I was like I'm old, I can't even see my fade anymore.

Speaker 2 4:40

Fortunately I'm bald, so there's nothing to be seen on the top of my head. It's just a goatee, and it's a very beautiful salt and pepper at this stage.

Speaker 1 4:51

Yeah, you got a very nice.

Speaker 2 4:53

I'm embracing it, I fully embrace it at this stage.

Faith and Spirituality as Foundations

Speaker 1 4:56

Nice, all right. So as we start this amazing conversation because 30 years in this and now we're talking about the search for meaning as you are transitioning into this new adventure with the University of Portland and, as you said, the dynamics that are currently happening in higher education in the United States is a huge aspect for that, so I'm excited for this, and so, as we start, the first question is what made you choose this topic Search for Meaning?

Speaker 2 5:29

You know, when presented with the frame sort of for the podcast and the various options to consider, search for Meaning was certainly one that stood out the most for me, and most likely because it's a search that began when I was a young child, you know, thinking about the way that I grew up, where I grew up, who I grew up with and the various questions that were posed to me. From my earliest memories on, what I know is that I've always sort of been on this search and I found meaning in different places, different people, different things throughout my life and, to be perfectly frank, I'm also still on a search for it in a lot of ways. I don't think there is a final destination necessarily when you're searching for meaning. I think there are various points throughout my life when I found meaning in a range of different ways, and that's a search that I remain on. But you know, this topic, you know, spoke specifically to me because my grandmother who for all purposes was also my mother, because she's the primary person who raised me there was a question that she and I dealt with quite a bit. You know she helped to frame, you know, purpose and meaning making for me and really helped me to sort of define it for myself and to know that many in our world, in our circles, will try and define your purpose and define what meaning should come from your life. But ultimately it's up to you to define that, and that's a lesson that I've carried with me my entire life and something that I think about quite a bit.

Speaker 2 7:13

You know, I believe wholeheartedly in meditation and journaling and reflection, and I start my day, each day, with that practice, and one of the questions that I really draw back to pretty consistently is what meaning have I made of the various experiences I've had, you know, this day and the next day and so on and so forth, but also just engaging in really deep reflection about, you know, this question, and some days I'm able to answer it pretty easily, and other days I'm not, and I'm perfectly okay with that, which is why, again, you know, this topic was, you know, fairly easy for me to pick, because it's a question that keeps coming up and one that I keep coming back to.

Speaker 2 8:04

And you know, as I just noted, some days I have a really great answer and can find meaning in the things, the people and the places that I'm engaged with, and other days I'm, you know, at a blank and don't really have much that I draw to, and again, that's okay too. It's really more about engaging in the process of attempting to answer the question for myself, and, quite honestly, that has meaning for me as well.

Speaker 1 8:36

Yeah, as you brought it up, the connection you have with your grandmother and her bringing this into your life as well, and that continuing into this process. It really, it really talks about that resilience because, as as I know you, faith is also a very important aspect of that, and I'm, you know, my, my curiosity is, you know, how does faith fit into your sense of the search for meaning?

Speaker 2 9:04

Yeah, you know it's a. It's a really good question. And you know you, having known me as long as you have, you know that my faith was driven, you know, by my grandmother. You know she was very actively involved in our church, which ultimately meant that I was also going to be actively involved in the church. And I don't practice religiously as much as I did when I was growing up or nearly as much as I did in my early adulthood, but I still draw significantly on the values and the principles that I was taught in my upbringing. And the two most formative structures sort of in my life growing up, particularly when I was younger, were my family and my church. Those were essentially my primary communities of practice and the places that I called home and sought solace in as I was experiencing a range of different things.

Speaker 2 10:05

And I still draw very significantly on my faith and my spirituality when thinking about my life and the world that we live in and inhabit, when I think about relationships, when I think about the big and the small decisions that are in front of me. When I think about the big and the small decisions that are in front of me, when I think about changes that I need to make. I draw from my prayer bank. I draw from, again, what I was taught in the church, what I was taught in my family. And what I was taught in my family was also rooted very heavily in what we were taught in our church. You know, I grew up in the Pentecostal tradition, which is a relatively charismatic tradition and one that believes in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and it's one that was really framed around you know, understanding who you are in relation to God, and you know I still think about my life in that regard that you know every step that I make, I believe, is ordered and in many ways ordained by God. And while, again, I don't practice nearly as much as I did when I was younger, I still draw back to that as a centering sort of presence in my life.

Speaker 2 11:39

So I noted earlier that I start my day with meditation, with journaling, that I start my day with meditation, with journaling, with reflection. That reflection is drawn deeply from prayer Prayer for myself, prayer for my family, my family of origin and my chosen family, prayer for my community and prayer for all those who are experiencing some degree of martyrdom in their life at the hands of big government or regimes, whatever it might be wanting. You know there to come. You know something to come from what we're all experiencing, whatever it might be good, bad, ugly, indifferent that there has to be some meaning for this. And I especially think about that now as a fairly liberal, progressive American citizen who doesn't necessarily align with the politics that are currently sort of leading the way, that if I didn't have such a strong sort of religious and spiritual underpinning and foundation, it would be far more difficult for me to have hope in any real resilience and expectation that at some stage we will see our way through this and out of it and into a better position than we currently find ourselves in.

Speaker 1 13:04

So that strength of meaning is giving you a sense of that resilience to be able to get through these challenging times. Is that kind of what I feel like I'm hearing?

Speaker 2 13:16

That's absolutely what you're hearing.

Speaker 2 13:20

I mean, I know that generations before us have gone through far more significant challenges and somehow, some way, they thought so that we might have the opportunities that we have.

Speaker 2 13:37

Our ancestors wouldn't have had the opportunity to have two Black men here talking on a podcast about a search for meaning.

Speaker 2 13:45

And here we are, and I know that there are current folks in this world who are having a difficult time imagining a better world and because of our history, I know that better is certainly available to us, is certainly available to us, but we have to be willing to dig in and work hard and challenge and resist, and do so in ways that put at the forefront the privileges that we hold and at some stage may put those privileges in jeopardy, but at a cost that could benefit the world, and in this moment it may only benefit me or my small corner of the world.

Standing on Ancestors' Shoulders

Speaker 2 14:29

But if we continue to do so in a way that pulls all of us more together and aligns our work and our values, then the impact that I have and the impact that you have and the impact that others have will amplify and domino and will create greater change and will hopefully lead us to a place that results in change and a better existence for all of us could lead to great depression and anxiety and stress, and it's not to suggest that I don't experience that as it is, but I know that the only way for me to keep moving through some of that is to keep working hard and to believe that better days are ahead.

Speaker 1 15:18

Yeah, yeah, no, no, and I feel like that is an important message right now, especially with all the, all the things filtering through our world right now, all the. You know I'm here in Bangalore and I'm miles away, I'm on the other side of the planet, but yet I look at the news and I just absolutely just tremble with the fact of of what is being changed and sometimes, you know, most of it is not for the good of the people, you know it's good for the few, but it's not good for the majority of people, um, and so it's very, uh, disconcerting, right, and so it's, I agree with you, you know, like being able to find your foundation and that's what I hear.

Speaker 1 16:00

Like being able to understand what it means for you to be in this space and to continue to work and to continue to see that there is a better day, is you have to have something strong to stand with right. You have to have that there's absolutely no doubt about that.

Speaker 2 16:17

I spent the last week in North Carolina and we were drawn to North Carolina because my wife lost her 95-year-old grandmother and it was a beautiful celebration of 95 glorious years of life where she fully invested in her family, was deeply connected to her faith, and she's seen us through so many different iterations of our existence as Black Americans in this world and yet she persisted and she was resilient and in doing so she created a better life for her children and her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren. And being able to celebrate her and the momentous sort of connections that she made in the way that she led her life was amazing. It also gave me the opportunity to connect with my family and a number of my friends who are also in North Carolina. You know, when I am in community with folks that I am reminded of my history, reminded where I started from, reminded of the you know. You know the young me who didn't really have a understanding of what was available to me in this world, the young me who didn't really know how to make any meaning of any of the experiences that I was having and, most importantly, how far I've come. You know being with my brothers and sisters, being with my mom and my stepmom, my aunts and uncles being with some of my friends from college, being with my in-laws, is just a great, great, great reminder of you know how far I've come. You know, because I began as a very shy, introverted kid who didn't really imagine leaving my small 790 person hometown. And you know now you know I'm, you know in this executive role on a college campus. You know I've been in this kind of position a number of times now, where I'm speaking to thousands of students and family members and supporters in a fairly routine way.

Speaker 2 18:31

And if you would have asked 18-year-old me or 13-year-old me or six-year-old me if this was even remotely possible, I would have said absolutely not. And yet here we are, and a lot of it again. It draws back to the investment that my grandmother and the rest of my family placed in me, but also the encouragement that I received in the way in which I was encouraged to ask questions and to really search for myself and to recognize that. You know, there's a history in our family, but that history doesn't necessarily need to be mine. There's something greater out there and that greater doesn't necessarily exist in our hometown that doesn't have a farming community and very few folks have the opportunities that have been presented to me.

Speaker 2 19:27

And, again, that all roots from that big question of meaning and purpose and really trying to understand what my place in the world was and is and how I can contribute and what it means, not just for me but for those who come after me. We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us and who paved a path, and ultimately, that's what all of us are responsible for doing for those who come behind us is paving a path and making it a little bit easier for them so they don't have to sacrifice and struggle and experience the same kind of challenges that we experience. And that, quite honestly, is how I intend to keep living my life, how I feel like I've led it, you know, for as long as I've been able to sort of establish my own sort of direction, and I can't see any other way.

Speaker 1 20:23

That's amazing, and you're right. It's interesting to have this conversation around search for meaning and the importance of the generations before us, because I also am of that same mindset. My mother, my grandmother, my grandparents are like the people that have been a part of my village, right, I was raised in this village concept of you know, it takes a village to raise a child, and I feel like that is truly what it, what that generation has provided to us, because I don't hear that as often in this newer generation of of the community coming together to generation of of the community coming together to, to uplift and to share uh, share wisdom and insights of of what is it is what it is to to traverse this world at this point in time, and and and what are the things you need? Um, I feel like I've definitely been blessed to be able to be around people and to continue to grow my village. You know as I think about it, you and so many people from Vermont.

Speaker 1 21:27

We had a podcast earlier with Virginia. Virginia was talking about how important Vermont was for us. You know, 18 plus years and finding a space that we were able to be challenged and be welcomed in. That challenge, right, and that became a huge new village for me, because I have my family village and now the other village that's super important is all these people that I went through, all these struggles and growth and trying to come to some sense of understanding of who I am with, and I have that started in Vermont.

Speaker 1 22:01

It hasn't stopped, you know, and so there's also a lot of you know, but our villages are continue to grow and in that is this beautiful thread of meaning and and I just you know hearing your story and hearing what you're talking about, it just really resonated with me that we stand, we do, we stand on generations, and I don't know how many people actually truly look at it in that way, me that we stand, we do, we stand on generations, um, and I don't know how many people actually truly look at it in that way that we are, we're not here just because of our, of our hard work, but also the hard work of of many others that have paved that path for us.

Speaker 2 22:35

Um, yeah, I. Your reflection on that, I think, is absolutely correct, that there that there are far too few who are recognizing sort of the generational influences that have paved the way and, you know, thinking about this current sort of iteration and generation of students in particular, they don't talk about it in the same way. They don't talk about it in the same way. I think they understand that there were folks who came before them, but I don't know that they fully understand the sacrifices that were made in them. And it's not that they are unaware, and even that they're unappreciative, they just don't have the language necessary to understand it in the same way because they are a little bit more removed from it than we were. I mean, if you think about it, you know I was born in 1976. I'm just a decade and a half away from a critical part of the civil rights era and and, quite honestly, less than that, given some of the other things that happened in the late 60s. And you know so I grew up in a home where we were actively talking about these issues. We were talking about civil rights, we were talking about women's rights, we were talking about the ways in which my grandmother and her siblings and my grandfather and great-grandfather and grandmother and their siblings all had to struggle through slavery and sharecropping and civil rights, and so for me I was getting firsthand storytelling of what it was like to grow up in that time. And having grown up, you know, in a working class, poor family myself, you know I also experienced some of that, and so you know I obviously didn't grow up doing slavery, I didn't grow up during sharecropping, but I grew up in rural North Carolina where cotton is still those fields, are black and brown folks, black and Mexican immigrants to that part of North Carolina, and while things are certainly different, there are some things that are still very starkly the same. Know for me again is a great reminder of where we've been, where we've come from, how much things have changed and again, how much some things have really remained the same despite the great progress that has made. And if this current administration isn't a reminder of anything, it does tell us how quickly we can move backwards and how quickly the rights that so many fought for for decades can really be eradicated without any real question, whether it be legal, constitutional or not. These are things that are happening and we are being turned into something that our ancestors fought very strongly against, and that makes it very difficult and at the same time, it is the motivation for continuing the fight.

Speaker 2 26:07

You know, cory Booker I don't know if you saw this for 24 hours you know chose to use his positioning in the Senate to make a statement, and a really strong statement, and he will be critiqued and criticized and some will call it performative.

Speaker 2 26:28

He had a platform and he chose to use it and it is drawing all kinds of attention and, from my perspective, the right kind of attention, because folks are talking about this issue in a different way.

Speaker 2 26:43

And that, for me, is, you know, my review of that is he was looking for a way to make a meaningful impact and, through his own sort of discernment process and search, he decided that this was the way to do it. And we all have the ability to engage in that same discernment and reflective process where we get to decide what kind of activity will result in the kind of meaningful change that we're looking for. And are we willing to take risk when you know, at stake is our livelihood, our positioning, our power, our authority and the various privileges that we hold. And it was very clear to me in this instance, that he said yes, and so my question for all of us is, when those moments arise, will we have the courage to also say yes and step out on faith and do those things in an act of resistance that can cause some level of controversy, critique or disdain from those who are, you know, in our camps or following us?

Communities of Practice and Meaning

Speaker 1 27:46

Yeah, it was great, beautifully said. You know, this conversation is such a resistance conversation right now, right, because I think that is that's truthfully where we are at this point in time. As you were talking about how you were raised and how how you were, how you grew up and where that search of meaning came from, I, I was reflecting in that moment of like. I was only born. I was born in 1980, so four years apart, right, 1980, not that, not that far, but but I was. I grew up in the concrete jungle, I grew up in LA, I grew up in, you know, in, in Altadena bless, you know, bless the soul of altadena, and I know it will come back.

Speaker 1 28:23

And for me, the pivotal moment, because I I spent my life in, in service, I did volunteerism, I was volunteering since I was seven and so I always was connected to these different communities and in different outreaches, in different ways. You know, rich, poor, you know, trying to make a difference in some way. And for me it was the riots. The la riots uh kind of brought everything ahead, because I had a, you know, my, my dad worked for the police department and my mom was a community organizer.

Speaker 1 28:55

So in my household you had the two things that were clashing against each other in the heat and, like a super heated moment, right, rodney King got beat up, you know, and right down the street, reginald Denny got hit with a brick. Right right down the street from my grandmother, my great grandma's house so you know the intersection I would pass and go to when I live there was Reginald. Where Reginald Denny got hit with the brick and pulled out of his truck. Right, like, those pivotal moments are that kind of that thought process of like, how do we come together? Right, that was the whole LA riots. La riots was beyond just the police brutality, but there was a clear separation of our communities. You know, people weren't living, people weren't experiencing the same things, and that was coming ahead. And this conversation of how can we get along Even though I joked about it for many years of this is the worst slogan in the history of civil rights slogans.

Speaker 1 29:57

Like can't we just get along Walking around with we Care t-shirts and and everything um, but it was true at the end of the day how could our communities come together and put put ourselves not above each other, but with each other, and and?

Speaker 1 30:15

I see that struggle right the struggle is now even more prominent of. There is a clear divide. There's people that are clearly wanting to divide. Not even there's a divide. They want to divide and they're pushing that agenda to divide in so many abrupt ways. Where do we find the strength to be able to stay together and build that bond stronger? And I think just off of our conversation. I feel like meaning is a huge part of that, and I don't know if you're feeling that as well, but I feel like the importance for this search for meaning not just our own selves, our own individual selves, but our community search for meaning is an important aspect for us to really get through these challenging times. That's just my thought. What do you think about that?

Speaker 2 31:07

Yeah, I absolutely believe that is an essential element in the search for meaning. You know, this connection between community meaning and resistance is, you know, I feel like, very sort of appropriate to the time that we find ourselves in. It's so interesting too. I had no intention of this conversation going in this direction tonight and, for whatever reason, I think I just feel compelled, and maybe because I had been watching a lot of political, you know, speak tonight before jumping online. And you know when I think about it in the context of our communities and what we need currently.

Speaker 2 31:53

You know, there are some communities who are being devastated in a range of different ways and their rights are being trampled upon in ways that I don't know, that any of us could have really ever imagined. And there's been a reversal of so many policies and protocols and agencies that were intended to to support the disenfranchised and the less fortunate and historically marginalized and underrepresented. And if we don't understand fully the need to be in community with one another and to use our villages and our tribes as a way to establish a really strong foundation, then it becomes more difficult for us to make any real change and if we don't engage in some form of resistance and challenging the status quo, then we are doing a disservice to the future generations. We are not setting them up in ways that will allow them to have the same opportunities that we have better opportunities than we have. We are not affording them the kind of privileges that they should be afforded, given the good work, the hard work, the necessary work that we have been engaged in. And that's a hard pill to swallow in a lot of ways because, again, as I noted earlier, so many generations of people before us have worked tirelessly, many even lost their lives in the fight.

Speaker 2 33:36

For, you know, you know, civil rights, in the fight for justice, in the fight for equity, and, you know, while you know, currently in the US, again, dei, diversity, equity, inclusion and social justice are under attack. What's really under attack are those of us who've historically been on the margins, because we are still being considered as less than and as having not worked hard enough to have been at the table or to be at the table, and for many that is a hard proposition. But for those who are benefiting, they aren't fighting hard enough. From my perspective, you know that they are depending upon the voices of those who are being most impacted or directly impacted, to really continue leading the way. And, quite honestly, in order for real change to happen, those who are benefiting from these changes the most significantly will really need to be the ones to speak up, because they will not hear it otherwise it's, you know.

Speaker 2 34:44

So, again, thinking about resistance as an act of love, as an act of courage and an act of valor, and as a way of expressing the deep connection that I have with the people, with the place, with the community, the village, the tribe that we've worked so hard to build. I just can't imagine, you know, not speaking up and not allowing my voice to be heard. Now, I pick my moments. I, you know, I, you know, can't be out on the front lines of everything, especially given the work that I do and the consequences that we are finding that are associated with that. And at the same time, you know, I'm really clear about what I value, who I value and what is required of me in this moment in time, this moment in time in I'm choosing to to, you know, work in a role that you know values, you know experience, that values, dei and that place is really at the center of my work.

Speaker 2 35:59

All of that, and, if you know, if I wasn't able to do that at this particular point in time, I don't know what I'd be doing.

Speaker 2 36:03

I'm really you know it's nerve wracking and anxiety producing work, and yet it is critically important, especially as I think about educating the next generation of leaders and politicians and corporate execs, and teachers and lawyers and doctors those who will really be charged with making instrumental, large-scale, macro-level change that will really push us to be bigger and better than we are currently. And the work that's being done now to dismantle will ripple for decades and it will take many more decades to really rebuild. And when I think about encouraging a search for meaning among the various folks that I engage with both in and out of my work, it is really important to helping them really think more critically, thoughtfully, about all these issues. Um, that we're we're dealing with, and again I'm like this is so different from what I was intending to talk about tonight. I didn't imagine that I'd bring politics into this at all and yet, um, it feels so appropriate and and right yeah, it's also.

Speaker 1 37:18

I mean really and truly. Our generations are also, I think, political animals, right, because we have had to understand, navigating that as African-American men, politics has always been a part of the forces that were aligned against us. Truthfully, um, and I I think that also brings a lot of significance to what cory booker did, right as a as a first black new jersey congressman, to get up there and to speak beyond 24 hours to outdo the record of uh storm of thurman storm who is?

Speaker 1 38:00

Who is a super racist guy? It just let's be clear about it Super racist to to, to destroy that, to say we're going to talk something, we're going to talk more substance, right, and we're going to bring, bring awareness to what is happening. So you know, this search for meaning, it makes sense to like it's just natural. I truly believe it's natural. You can't, as African-Americanican man, at least in my experience, you cannot have this search of meaning conversation without some political aspect to it. It just so happens that it's all over the place. It's just too big not to say something um and uh. But I think also our we've always had this conversation. This has always been about our space to be able to, to be truthful about where we are. So I appreciate it and I and I think you know it's just it just really brings a lot of depth to it.

Speaker 2 39:14

So we brought it back to our communities and the world, but at the very least we are engaged in community with one another in a meaningful way and in a way that matters and helps us to process and further understand. You know what we ourselves are experiencing in this moment in time.

Building Bridges Across Differences

Speaker 1 39:35

Yeah, yeah, you know, I just had this amazing flashback of it came to my tri-tip moon tower poker nights, like I. That just, oh, just flashed right into my brain as you're talking about all of that. You know those moments of times that we sat back and had just amazing conversation about where we are in this world, uh, and how, how we can maybe get some sense of meaning from it so that we can continue to do that work, and just those images came to my mind of you know the amazing times of, oh, we got tri-tip yeah.

Speaker 1 40:12

Over at Alvin's house. Like whenever there was a tri-tip, there was barbecue at Alvin's house. So many of those.

Speaker 2 40:19

Yes.

Speaker 1 40:20

Right Now, in our age, I'm like try a tip. I can't even touch that thing.

Speaker 2 40:25

That immediately goes to. We are afflicted with the same issues here with us writers, so yeah.

Speaker 1 40:34

Oh, darn this gray hair.

Speaker 2 40:36

Gray hair.

Speaker 1 40:37

No, as we're talking through this, where do you, Because we brought this up earlier where do we see? Where do you see meaning coming from for this next generation?

Speaker 2 40:51

You know it's a hard one, you know so you know it's incumbent upon members of our family who've lived through many iterations of this to begin storytelling all over again. You know, storytelling is rich in the Black community and was rich in my family and so, and we continue to share stories with the younger generation and it's really, you know, I think, helpful for them to understand their history and the past and, to, you know, hopefully not repeat the same mistakes that were made by those of us who came before them, who again are paving the way and charting a path in the hopes that the path is clearer and easier for them. So that's one. Education, again war-wide, although it's under attack in the US, I think, is also really important, and it's important to help folks connect with those who are different from them. So many of our communities continue to be segregated, and so the opportunity to interact with those who are different from you oftentimes lies in those other places where we find community the church, the school, various other communities, employment, whatever it might be and we really have to lean heavily on those structures to really support the development of our understanding of the world, in psychology and sociology and other disciplines that call it, communities of practice, and I referenced it earlier, but those are those communities where we hold some level of membership to help to frame our understanding of ourself in the world and our place in it, but also help to form our varying perspectives about the different things that we encounter, whatever those things might be, and the more exposure we all have, the better off we will be. It doesn't mean that we're all going to align and believe in the same way or believe in the same things, but at the very least it will give us some insight into how and why people think and believe the way that they do or behave in the ways that we do. That has to be a part of it for me.

Speaker 2 43:19

And then the last thing that you know, really I think is a major influence, is where we receive our news or one outlet for information, and typically that one outlet feeds the perspective that we already have. And rather than you know, you know tapping into multiple different outlets, you know, as a way to try and triangulate information or to expand our understanding of an issue or the nuances associated with the issue. We just, you know, lean in heavily towards our biases and just run with those pieces that support. You know our way of thinking, whatever it might be, and it doesn't particularly matter, you know how you lean socially, politically, religiously or otherwise. We all have sort of this innate and default way of engaging with things in that way, and until we are more open to engaging in critical thought and courageous conversations and debates that are productive and healthier, we will continue to do what we're currently doing and have always done, which is just aligning. The other thing that I think is critical for these varying communities that we're in is that piece, too, like introducing different perspectives.

Speaker 2 44:54

You know, as a teacher in the classroom, you know I have my students engage in debates all the time and I typically have students take on a side of an argument that doesn't align with what they've shared in regards to their own values, so that they can start to think in terms of how others think about an issue, end up changing their mind or their perspective, but really having them understand how to fully interrogate and investigate an issue for themselves and make meaning of that issue for themselves, rather than taking in everything that someone offers at face value without really digging deep into it. You know, I think far too often all of us are guilty of just hearing something and it becomes the gospel truth, and we run with that truth and it becomes you know, it spreads pretty quickly and that is an issue, and so we have to take some responsibility for all these things in order for that real change to happen. And then, with regards to meaning making, you know how we make meaning of our existence in the world has to be a question that's raised from the very beginning. You know, if kids aren't taught to make meaning of the world around them, of the various things that they're experiencing, then it becomes a more difficult proposition as they get older. But if we engage them in this, you know critical thought and analysis early on and we teach them how to do it the interrogation, the investigation, the asking of questions, the pushing back, the challenging and the resisting the easier it becomes.

Speaker 2 46:40

My grandmother taught me this skill, you know. Again, I was shy, introverted kid, but the one thing that I learned, among many, was to always ask questions. And I learned how to ask questions in ways that weren't off-putting or disrespectful or discourteous, but were really an expression of my curiosity. And that's what we have to teach our children, our students and others who don't know how to engage in this, that that will be the real way that we learn how to make meaning of those things that are happening to us, around us, for us, et cetera.

Speaker 1 47:19

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with you, completely agree with you. And being able to challenge yourself to go look at something completely opposite than what you believe and think will push you to see things in a new light. Right In that search of meaning. So having your students go in and I remember that my teacher did that new light, right In that search of meaning. So having your students go in and I remember that my teacher did that to me right In my public speaking class go research this topic that you don't agree with and from there you have a deeper understanding of why you don't agree with it, what makes it difficult.

Speaker 1 47:59

But also a respect for the fact that this is someone else's perspective and who am I to judge them for that? Rather, this is an honest conversation and I just disagree with it Doesn't mean that you're a bad person, and I think that the civility of disagreement is really, really struggling, right, everyone gets. Really. They think you have to be nasty and put all these horrible things out there because you disagree with someone else, versus that's just their perspective, based upon how they view and make meaning of the world. So how can we expand that meaning right? How can we share who we are what we are all about and what we are together, because obviously they see themselves as being separate from us, and so how can we bring people back together? And that's, you know, that's a message I always felt like was missing, has been missing, has been difficult to really be able to articulate in a way that people can hear it and bring that together. So, but I love that.

Speaker 2 49:03

It, hear it and bring that together. But I love that. It's a part of that search. We don't know how to talk to one another. Yeah, yeah, it absolutely is. We don't know how to talk to one another or with one another any longer. Everything is, you know, an argument and it is rooted in conflict and not rooted in, you know, trying to engage in healthy and productive ways and I'm not suggesting that we need to engage with folks who are a threat to our very being, but for folks, you know, whose perspectives are just fundamentally different than ours, you know, attempting to understand those perspectives has been really beneficial to me as a leader and an educator.

Speaker 2 49:45

You know, I draw back to, you know, one of my friends, who I will not name from graduate school, but if anyone listens to this podcast from my grad school days, they'll know exactly who I'm talking about. We couldn't have been any more different than if we tried. And you know, and that was in every possible way racially, ethnically, religiously, spiritually, politically, in each of us knew that we would never be friends with the other. It just was going to be that way. That's coming into it as we were first interacting with one another, you know, and perhaps it was stronger on my end than it was on theirs, but I just knew that that was not someone that I wanted to be all that connected with. And you know, as the guardrails came down and we got to know each other, we learned that, despite the differences in perspective and positioning, that there were some things that we had in common and that those things turned out to outweigh the differences that existed between us. And, you know, by the end of our time we were the best of friends. And it has been 25 years and we are still the best of friends. And it has been 25 years and we are still the best of friends. And again, you know, there are still things that we don't see eye to eye on, but we can talk about those things and engage in those discussions in ways that are rooted in the connection and the relationship that we now have.

Speaker 2 51:19

We can push back on one another and ask questions of one another that I wouldn't be comfortable necessarily asking someone that I don't have a relationship with, because we invested the time and the energy and if I had just given up, as I was intending to do when we first met one another, this wouldn't have been available to me.

Speaker 2 51:37

I'm not suggesting that this is something that can happen for everyone, but when I allowed myself to be open to just experiencing this person in a different way, it really pushed me to think differently about who they were and how they were showing up and why they were showing up the way that they did, as compared to me.

Speaker 2 52:04

And, as I said, you know, I honestly couldn't ask for a better friend, supporter, advocate and person to be in my corner, particularly when times are challenging.

Final Thoughts and Closing

Speaker 2 52:17

And so you know, I tell people all the time I have the best hype team in the world, and that hype team comes from every corner of the world, every persuasion, every race and ethnicity, every religion, and I don't always agree with everything that comes out of the mouth of of those that I'm connected with, and somehow, some way, we find a way to coexist and in some instances, coexist as is the case with this particular individual is basically family members. We are brothers and brothers who never imagined that we would be that for one another, and that's legitimately who we are and what we've become for one another. And if you had asked me that 25 years ago when we first met, the answer would have been a hard pass a hard no. And yet here we are and we've been able to find meaning in our relationship in ways that are significant to each of us, based on what we needed at different points in our life.

Speaker 1 53:19

Yeah, that's beautiful, great. Well, I feel like that's a beautiful thing to end with. Actually, truthfully, I feel like that is a great, a great space to end because it brings it, brings it all together right like, at the end of the day, our search for meaning isn't just a soul, isn't by ourselves, it's with, it's within communities, with others, and I think that just what you said just kind of brought all that together. So thank you for that.

Speaker 2 53:46

Thank you, I appreciate your having me. It's been a great pleasure to have this basically fireplace conversation in chat with my brother and friend.

Speaker 1 53:58

Thank you for listening to what Makes Us. Make sure to rate or review this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or send it to a friend who you think will enjoy this podcast. Thank you for sharing your time and see you soon.