Seek Balance with Susannah

What does balance really feel like when your job follows you down the hallway, into the courtyard, and through the night? 

In this episode, we sit down with Susannah Lawrence—runner, tea loyalist, cat lady, and former residence life pro turned higher ed leader—to unpack the messy, honest truth about navigating balance across evolving career seasons.

From the charged, always-on pace of living in a residence hall to the quieter (but still draining) demands of academic advising and the restorative shift into research administration, we explore why time without energy isn’t freedom—and how boundaries begin by distinguishing urgency from true emergencies.

We dig into the hidden tradeoffs of mission-driven work: the emotional cost of people-pleasing, the burnout of caring more than the person you’re helping, and why financial well-being belongs in every mental health plan. Susannah shares how health moved from background goal to daily priority—managing blood sugar, running for connection and clarity, and building routines that quietly transform tomorrow.

We also take on technology’s tug: doom-scrolling that hijacks sleep, two-factor prompts that fracture focus, and the power of news curfews to protect your peace. Inside the workplace, we lean on research showing that friendships fuel resilience and trust makes hard days survivable. The takeaway isn’t a formula—it’s a practice: tune into your signals, adjust as you go, and let your definition of balance evolve with you.

🎧 If this conversation speaks to you, hit follow, share it with someone who’s running on empty, and leave a quick review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Then ask yourself: what’s one small shift you’ll make today to reclaim your energy?

Thank You to all of our supporters that have contributed a couple of bucks to keep this show up and running! All proceeds go back into the show to make it better and increase the reach out to the community.

If you like what you have heard and to support the show, just click on the link for support! Every dollar helps us bring more stories and inspiration to your ears!

Thanks for being amazing!

Transcript

Welcome And Theme: Seeking Balance

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome to What Makes Us. This is a podcast exploring in how we develop as people through our experiences and connections between individuals, with groups, and amongst society. We'll be bringing on guests to discuss how they've come to be who they are. And along the way, we may end up learning something about ourselves. So please sit back and enjoy your listening to What Makes Us. Welcome to What Makes Us. I'm your host, Brian Hooks, and today our episode is What Makes Us Seek Balance. I'm really excited for this episode because I have my super bestie friend from back in the day, Susie or Suzana Lawrence, Susie Q, since I'm the only one that can say this. So if you see her on the street, do not call her Susie. I'm really excited because uh this is a reconnection. And I think most listeners to this podcast have now figured out that I have a strong love for Vermont and for the people that I was with in Vermont. And Susie is a part of that crew, uh lifelong friend, and I'm super excited to have her here with us. Uh Susie, please say hello. Uh tell us a little bit about yourself and why did you oh why? I don't use why. What made you choose this topic of seek balance?

Meet Susanna And Why Balance Matters

Urgency Versus Emergency At Work

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Hi, so I'm Susanna. I'm a runner, a tea drinker, I'm a crazy cat lady, and another and a longtime higher education administrator. And so what made me want to talk about seeking balance today is my work experience and how it's impacted my views on work-life balance over a couple of decades of my career now. Um, and I found that obviously balance is different for everyone, depending on their experience and their life. Um, and I recently had a job change that has had me reflecting on kind of the what caused me to make other job changes and how the theme among those job changes has often been balance and seeking a different type of balance. Um and I was thinking about how this was many years ago now, but when I was talking to someone about why I went into academic advising within higher education, and I said that there were no emergencies in academic advising. And that was something that was really exciting to me because in the in previous jobs I had been dealing with emergencies. And this colleague who had been in academic advising for decades vehemently disagreed with me and said, There are emergencies. Students tell us when they're in the hospital, um, students miss deadlines, and we have to advocate for them to get permission for have deadlines extended. I said, Yes, to me, those are urgent situations. In my past job experiences at that point, I had been the one calling 911 to get the student to the hospital.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Um in one job, I had to go to the hospital with students, or you're calling and there's been a fight, and you've got to call facilities to clean up bodily fluids and blood, you know. And in academic advising, you're you're receiving disseminating a lot of information. You a student might tell you that something happened and you've got to notify the dean of students. You know, you're part of the case management, but in past jobs, I had been the one actually doing welfare checks on students.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Instead of just calling someone to do a welfare check. So to me, in my experience as an academic advisor, those are all urgent things, but not emergencies. Um I've had this conversation with a few people, and some people agree with me and some disagree, but it's just it's an interesting, interesting conversation to have to people that kind of exposes their values and experience and how that's impacted them. Um and so it's just it's just something that in in this recent jobs change, I'm no longer an academic advisor, just has me reflecting back on these past experiences. And um, so that's why it's kind of front of front of mind for me at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Yeah, yeah. No, thank you for that. And you know, there's two things I I first wanted to comment on was yeah, go cat lady, because there's some person out there in the universe that was kind of giving some hate to the cat lady. So, you know, go cat ladies. And and secondly, I totally agree with you on the sense of the difference between emergency and urgency, right? Like the I, you know, as we grew up in housing, uh I'll just put it out, I'll put it out there. In housing, uh, you you really do quickly understand the difference between someone that is in a life-threatening situation compared to uh inconvenience that can be that can be managed, right? Uh, you know, uh paper being turned in a little bit late, having to have a conversation with the faculty member to to approve that is so much different than having to make a call to a family to say your your student is in the hospital because they have decided you know they had ideation at the time, right? That's a that's a huge difference. Yes, that's a huge difference, and I totally agree with you. You know, I so I I kind of if you don't mind, I I kind of want to start there because for me, that is where I really learned an imbalance and work life balance.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Yes, same.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

So I kind of want to, I would love to talk to you about what is what you know what was that experience of housing for you in in that position? Because uh for the res lifers and for the really and truly for the non-res lifers, right? For the people that don't know about the res life job, yeah, it's a it's a very uh rewarding and demanding position. So for you, you know, what was that experience like and and the work life balance?

SPEAKER_01 6:33

So for six years I was in residence life, and for those six years, it was all consuming. It it it was who I was, and I I don't know that I realized that at the time. I think at the time I thought there were other things in my life going on. But in hindsight, there really wasn't. You know, you're working 40 hours a week on paper, but that then you're on call from Thursday to Thursday and you know every few weeks. So then you're sleeping, you know, over the weekend, you're maybe sleeping in two, three hour bursts. I mean, all nighters sometimes you get a phone call at 7 p.m. You don't know if you'd be back home at 10 p.m. or 7 a.m. the next morning.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Um, and that has happened to me, getting a phone call at 7 p.m. and not getting home till 7 a.m. And even when you're not on call, you are unofficially on call if there's a flood or a fire or some other urgent situation, as I know we experienced, you get a phone call anyway to come and help. And like I said, it is it was so rewarding. But you know, I I remember I'm a runner and I started running when I worked in Res Life, and I would go for a run around campus because it was a beautiful campus and you know, great to go run around. But a student would recognize me while I would be running and stop me and ask me a question. Or I'd be you know, and you're like, I'm I'm just like trying to have 30 minutes to exercise here and like I can't even do that without being interrupted. Or you're just walking to your car to go to the grocery store to get some food, right? And they see you and they stop you in the parking lot. And I'm gonna say, for people who don't know, this is a job where you live where you work, you have to live in the residence halls with the students. So they see you going to and from your car. They I remember this, I was in a building that was shaped like a U. And so there was a courtyard kind of in the middle. And one night I got a phone call about broken glass on another part of the building, and so I took a shortcut through the courtyard to you get from one side of the building to the other. I went outside, and there was a it was two or three in the morning, and there was a student sitting on a bench in the courtyard, and as I walked by, he said, The RD's on her way, the RD's moving, and it was so dramatic and funny. And I laugh, but I'm like, they know who you are, they're watching you at all times. He's telling whoever he's talking to, probably inside the building, that I'm going into the building, you know, like it was just right, right. But you you you can't you couldn't do anything without 600 students knowing about it.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Oh my gosh, that's so true. That's so true. It was, you know, I agree. It was an amazing experience and one that I I don't think I was really prepared for the first year because I was, you know, I was coming out of multicultural affairs work, which you know, you had somewhat of a balance. It wasn't there, the emergencies were there, but there were different emergencies, right? Almost every department has an emergency house, but it I mean, in in student affairs work, but it's it's a little bit different, right? The context is different, what you have to do is different. Um housing, it was just like you said, it was I I love it, all consuming. Because yeah, you did six years, I did, oh my gosh, how many did years I did? I did about 15 years. No, no, no. I don't know. Housing specifically, I think 10 years. No, no, 13 years, 13 years. I didn't like think about it. It's such a long time, 13, 13 years, right? Um, and it was so ingrained, right? I could not look at a residential building, I could not go past campus without looking up into the windows. It was like automatic. Like I had to look up into a window to make sure I didn't see uh you know a ping pong ball flying through the air. This that has happened to me several times. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

So as an academic advisor, this was maybe three years ago. It was it was when the university was getting ready to be closed for winter break. I think it was the last day the university was open, but students have been gone for about a week. And my office was across the street from a residence hall, and as I was leaving work, I looked up at the windows because I I hadn't been in housing for about 10 years at that point, but I still, like you said, look up. And there were three windows open, and it was about 20 degrees outside, and it was going to get colder overnight.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

And I made so many phone calls saying someone needs to close these windows before a pike bursts overnight, and there's a real problem. I didn't work in that department, but I was like, someone did not close this building correctly, and I have seen it, and I have to do something about it.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

It's it it does become ingrained, right? Like you have to because you're trained to be a first responder, it's like you have to respond, which really messes up that work-life balance. Because, like you said, it was truthfully, we were on 24-7. There was there was truly no off unless you left the state.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

If you left the state when I left the state and I was still getting phone calls.

Carrying The Job Home: Energy Costs

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Ah, I know, right? Right. I I'm uh I'm across all the way, but I was back home in California, and I got had a couple of calls coming, and I was like, okay, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, you gotta do this. And I was just like, What? I'm on vacation, I'm not there. Why am I having to field this call? But it became such an ingrained thing, and also it was I think it also was because it was help, right? We knew that someone had to do that job while we weren't there, and they're calling for assistance, and we and we always helped out, right? We it wasn't like it was a no, um, but it was yeah, it was and it was just consuming. And and I don't think I got my balance right for many years. Um yeah, I and so I think that's one of the struggles. I you know, I think my third year, and that was the third, no, my second year, I got my tattoo of the two dragons. And when you when you brought up this balance, I really I remember that I got that tattoo specifically about balance. And I I mean it's years. I I've it I almost forgot about it until you brought it up because I was like, you know, I had I had been struggling with with this thing, and I wanted the two dragons to be kind of in this yin and yang of balance and harmony, and they're battling each other. And I was like, why did I forget about my tattoo? Like uh not just my tattoo, but the symbolism, the reason why I got that tattoo, and the striving for balance in my life because it definitely wasn't there. Um what uh as as you've experienced housing and this work-life balance, now you're out of housing, right? And you're going into academic affairs. What does balance look like in that space for you?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

It was it was definitely a change, but I think one thing that is the same is that you're still you're still working directly with students and still working with students who are experiencing difficult situations. And so, yes, I was working eight to five and got to go home, but you're still thinking about things, you're still kind of carrying the weight of those student situations with you. I think like when you said, you know, as a helper, right? I think it you always want to help. And I think that can throw off the balance sometimes because I think about in grad school, they would tell us you've got to make sure that you're okay before you're helping other people. And that can be so difficult. I mean, and so in academic affairs, yeah, it it was certainly the the bal I had time to do more things on, but I didn't always have the energy. I think too, being an introvert and spending eight I was working more than eight hours a day, but um spending all day with people, and especially as I moved into leadership positions, I would be with students, and as soon as a student left my office, a colleague would be in my office asking for help with their student situations. Um and and so for eight, nine hours a day, I was never by myself. And so I would come home and just be exhausted from that and lay on my living room floor just for half an hour, just you know, just to kind of regain some some energy and that balance. So that was challenging for for for those 12 years, is that it was very different than being in in housing, um, but still still challenging and just yeah, the energy levels, you know, I'm a runner and I I'm part of a running group that I've been part of for almost six years now. Um and for for a while I was volunteering with the running group as well. Like I was a pacer, you know, running with a group of people, keeping them on pace, making sure no one gets lost, you know, kind of being responsible if someone falls, making sure you get help, things like that. Um which, you know, with a res-life background was kind of perfect.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Right, right.

Shifting To Advising And Leadership

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Um, so I I enjoyed it, but I had to stop doing that because as my as I became in more leadership positions, I didn't have the energy to do those things that I liked doing, to do those fun things outside of work. Um and so I still was part of the running group, but just kind of more for myself and not theirs, like to help other people because I didn't have the energy to do that. And um that made me a little sad, you know, like it's yeah, you know, on paper there's time, but your energy is finite as well. Um and I think this recent change in research administration, I don't work with students anymore. Um I found the time and the energy to do those things outside of work again. So um I'm volunteering again with my running group. I'm um I also I'm people have strong opinions about this, I know that. Um, but I'm on the board of directors for my neighborhood HOA, which is again with the housing experience and background, and I I like being part of my community. It's a great way to get to know my neighbors and try to improve my neighborhood. Um but I would not have had the time or energy to do that a few years ago, even working with students. So it's you know, the student affairs to academic affairs to just like higher education and generally switch. Uh it's just an ebb and flow of uh time to do other time and energy to do other things. And the energy I think is really important in an area people may not always think about.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yeah, no, you you you raise that an amazing point here because yeah, you get tired of not having balance, you get balance, but your energy is is being sapped in other ways, right? And you don't necessarily have then the energy, what even though you may have a little bit more time, right? And so the balance piece, right? That that's another part of it, right? Like the other part of it is not just getting the balance itself, but then actually being able to engage in what you want to do, having the energy to do that. I think that's huge because you're right, because I at some point I it's weird. The energy level for me, of course, I'm an extrovert, so exact opposite, right? I'm an extrovert, I love to be around people, I get energy from people. Uh, but even I got tired of people. Like, I need a break. I am an extrovert and I need a break right now.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

You're that's when it's it's not good.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah, yeah. That's when you're like, you're in my zone now. I have zones, you're in my zone. Um, and it was not so much getting the energy on campus, it was actually getting out off of campus and to be able to kind of have your own private life. Um I think as I moved up out of the res out out of being a resident director into an assistant director, I was also given a little bit more leeway and opportunity to get out and and actually do stuff outside of campus. Um, and I think that was super helpful. And I think also having a partner to be able to bring you out and to kind of remind you that there's a life outside of your job. Um, you gotta do something else uh because I don't want to be a part of your job. That was a very strong element, and it was helpful, right? It was helpful for in it's not so much I had a just a because it was a partner, but having people in your life to showcase that there is something other than what you have to do at work every single day. Um, and there's something important. I love that you're volunteering, you're connecting with people in a different way that isn't necessarily draining you of your energy. Um, because I I totally, totally agree that that is important. Yeah. What so now you are doing this? What what are those things that really stick out to you as we've been? I mean, we started we started our work together, oh my gosh, uh 2007, right? Like a long time ago. Um, I won't I won't put a number to that. No, no, it's too scary, right? It's super scary. Um, but we you know, you know, what are the things that you prioritize now in your life when you start looking at, you know, what you want to do um professionally, personally, you know, what are the things that that you're prioritizing right now?

Energy, Introversion, And Recovery

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah, it's a great question. Um health. It help like that is like my number one priority. I'm 44. Let's see if I can live another 44 years, right? Like that is that is not something I was thinking about in my 20s when we met, but now that is important to me. Um so you know, health, exercise, you know, I run two or three times a week, I go to the gym twice a week. Those are things that I do prioritize over other opportunities or experiences. You know, I I fit in social time with friends as well, but um, you know, I feel better when I'm when I exercise. I feel like I'm a better person. I show up to work and social interactions better when I've when I've exercised. Um I, you know, I've got to keep my blood sugar under control. So I've got to, you know, I so I feel better when I eat healthy and and work out, you know, you know, physically I can like tell a difference uh with blood sugar and things like that. And you know, my my parents are getting older, you know, they're fine. They don't need me on a day-to-day basis or anything like that. But you know, being around for them if they do need something and you know, they help me out as well, like that's important to me at at this point in my life as well. Um and just, you know, I think it was two, three years ago where health really became a priority for me. You know, I've always gone to the doctor, I've always been sort of healthy, but everything in the blood work started being like, everything's a little not good, everything's a little higher than it should be. Cholesterol's a little high, blood sugar's a little high, this isn't, you know, just all these things kind of creeping in. Um and just you know, it was in the work that I was doing, it was hard to have the energy outside of work to really um really put the energy into like you know, exercising and taking care of taking care of myself. Um and so that was something that like prompted this work change too, is yeah, you know, now I have a job that is it's eight to five. I don't think about it much, uh you know, outside of work. Of course, something always pops up. I'll be brushing my teeth and be like, oh, I need to do this. Let me send myself an email. You know, those things happen. Like I think that's normal. Um but it's not like overwhelmingly taking up time in my brain when I'm not at work. I can focus on other things. Um I can do research on peramenopause and hot flashes and all these things, and you know, figure out what I need to do to feel better. And um, you know, it that's you know, things that I want to be spending time on. But yeah, it's my health is really just a different level of priority for me than it has been in the past. And I think you know me. I mean, I started running when I knew you, you know, I wasn't unhealthy or anything, but um it's that like goal of living a long, healthy life. I, you know, I'm single and don't have kids. Like if that stays the same, you know, I want to be able to live in my house without assistance for longer, right? And there's there's research out there on you know, muscle mass and cognitive decline and being able to live on your own and things like that. And so I've spent way too much time researching those things, but but one of my top strengths for Clifton Strengths is learner, and so I will learn and tip into like anything. Um so, but yeah, that is a real priority for me. My health exercise, and it's fun, you know. My running group is social. I've got friends that I've made from the um, you know, I'm going on a a trip to the mountains in a couple of weeks with friends from my running group. You know, it's it's not just exercise, it's social. And that social is really important too. Um, especially my current job is a lot less social than any other job I've ever done in my career.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

And so I'm not getting like that social connection as much at work as I used to. And so, you know, doing things in my neighborhood and and having other social connections is now more important than it was a few years ago as well.

Reclaiming Time Through Career Change

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yeah, yeah. I just, you know, listening to that, and we are talking about seeking balance, and everything that you've kind of discussed has been this balance, right? You just talked about how you know you were in a position that was heavily, you know, you're interacting with a lot of people all the time. Now you're in a position that you're not necessarily interacting with a lot of people, but you're finding the social interactions that you need in other spaces. It's it's balancing out, right? Everything is balancing out so that you have that equilibrium, that harmony. Um, and I appreciate you bringing up your Clifton strengths, you know, as I I appreciate that very much. Um I you know, health, I I I think you hit you keep hitting it right on the head here. Health is, you know, as at a 45, and I like to think that I'm somewhat healthy. I try to do I try to do my yoga at least three times a week. Um, I know I need to add in some extra extra exercise, but I'm walking a lot more and um trying to not take the elevator. My my Achilles heel is uh late night Swiggies. Um Swiggy is a uh is like Uber Eats back home. Uh Swiggy is here. It's uh super, super tempting uh for to get food. So that's my late night. But you know, I just had a health thing come up, and the doctor was like, you know, you need to go to bed early. Uh you need to eat at a reasonable hour uh and not eat late. And you know, I right like my I I just had a throat thing, like my you know, like my lymph noid was a little bit um infected, and I thought it was an earache because my ear was hurting, and she was like, no, no, no. But she was like, what you need to do is is change this habit. And I was like, oh, and it and then I realized I was like, yeah, the last couple of nights I had been staying up past when the kid goes to sleep, and then I was eating, and that was pushing me past to like nine, ten o'clock at night. She was like, your body doesn't digest your food, your your body stops digesting after 8 p.m. And I was like, What wow, okay, I figured out why I wasn't feeling well, so okay, let me do this, you know, medicine regimen, this treatment, and and follow what she wanted me to do. And I had done that for the you know for a week, and I have to tell you, I actually felt a lot better. And I was like, okay, you know, this is helpful that the kid has to wake up at 5 30 in the morning to go to school because it makes me have to go to bed to be able to get her up and moving and not be a cranky pants uh myself, um, and to have that energy. Um and I was like, all right, so I I have started to slowly make this shift, right? Make this shift, and it is it's that other space of balance. I had been right in the last couple of years, I had been focusing on my mental health and emotional health. And now I'm like, uh 45. I think this is a year of physical health because my lower back is a lot sore really quickly, and I I'm not really digging that. Uh right, I'm in a yoga pose and I'm looking at my instructor like, you're trying to kill me, man. What are you trying to do? It's like this this pose is not natural for me, and you're and my back hurts now. So, so yeah, so 45 trying to find balance is really important. Um, and you know, thinking these long term thoughts, and I don't know, I think you're right in the 20s, you know, you can live forever, right? 40 was a long way off. 20s 40 is a long way off, right? Yeah, now I'm like 40 is was right around the corner. And I didn't, and I wasn't bad to my body, but I wasn't really good to my body either. Um, and I needed to really do a lot of different things. Yeah. So that's such a great segue, right? Like such a great conversation around balance. So balance is, you know, ultimately, balance is this combination of like almost is your emotional, mental, physical health. Right? You're you know, we talk about maintaining your well-being, right? Mental, emotional, physical well-being, um, trying to find balance in that space. Um you know, is there any other elements that you feel like is important in that for you in in finding balance? As we talked about the mission, uh, you know, emotional, mental, physical. Is there any other elements that you feel like you would add to that for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 31:52

I mean, I would add financial well-being into well-being too. I think you know, single income household in a time of inflation and whatever else economic mess is going on. I think financial stability can help with mental well-being too, right? If if you're concerned about money all the time, that's that can be harmful to your mental health too. So I think that is an element that you know, I think working in education, it's not necessarily popular or easy to say, I care about the money.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Right.

Health As The New Non‑Negotiable

SPEAKER_01 32:30

The money is a factor, right? We're supposed to want to help for low pay. Um, but how do you help if you have to have multiple jobs and you're having trouble keeping a roof over your own head, right? I mean, I've seen so many colleagues in education struggle financially. And um, I've known people to leave because they just they just need more money to support their life. And um I think that's got a stigma to it in education when people say that and and leave for those reasons, but it is the reality. I mean, there are people in working at universities making 45,000 a year in major cities in the US, and you just can't live on that. No, um to have to do our jobs, you have to have a master's degree, you have to pay for that somehow, right? So people have have debt. So I think that is like another balancing factor. And at some point, I know for me that became at some point like the money had to become more of a factor, and I've known that for other people as well. Because not having money stresses you out so much that it it just impacts your whole life as well, uh, in a in your in a negative way.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Yeah, no, no, totally true. I I yeah, financial stability, right? Um as you're talking about the the cost of living, the paychecks coming in not being enough. I also thought of not just educators, but nonprofit folks.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yes, yes, nonprofit organizations. Yeah, same struggle, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Same struggle, right? And I feel like even nonprofit folks, it's even harder because they're in organizations that are uh bleeding money, and most of that time they are, you know, most people are like, Why is why is 90%, you know, like why is there some money going to staff? And it's like staff gotta live.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Yeah, that little and they may not have the a good as good of a benefits package, like retirement or health insurance might not be as good as folks working in state education either. So in that that way they have it worse as well.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yeah, no, totally. I mean, many times I saw organizers uh from the nonprofit field that uh were actually on government assistance, right? They're they're in there working their butt off for their communities and they're not getting paid a livable wage, uh, and they are having to get government assistance as they're working with their clients. It did make a stronger connection between them and the community that they're working with. But why do you need that? Right, like why why do you have to be at that space? And and the level of burnout, we talk about balance in education, balance in the nonprofit sector is also just completely skewed. Um, as you know, I I really truly I was uh I actually taught a class this morning. Um, I was a guest lecturer for uh the nonprofit leadership class at Seattle U that I that I graduated from. Um and yeah, and we were talking about uh and I was explaining to them about transactional transactional uh analysis. And uh it's a theory that is about you know how we communicate with each other, how we're connecting, and the drivers that are a part of our lives. And one of those drivers, uh, the things that are unconsciously motivating us was about people pleasing, right? And you brought up the sacrifice, the self-sacrifice, and that is a clear indicator of people pleasing driver, right? Um and we call it the helping professions, education, nonprofit field, doctors, nurses, you know, first responders, those helping professions. But a lot in those helping professions are people pleasers, right? And and that self-sacrifice, which is completely counter to our conversation today about seeking balance. Because that right, because that is totally off balance, right? Where you are doing everything for someone else with very little in return, if anything, in return.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

And and then if you do something for yourself, I'll feel selfish, but someone else would do that same thing for themselves without even thinking about it, no concerns.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Right, right, right. It's uh it's a vicious cycle, right? We you know, we call it the helping professions, which I completely agree with, but it is also taken advantage of. Um it is taken advantage of, and um, and that is our own doing, right? Some of that is is on us as people stepping in, not saying like, hey, here's my line. And I remember when I was, you know, in housing and I had to tell my boss, like, I'm not gonna go this far. This is too far. We are now jumping into a realm that is, you know, putting ourselves at significant risk of our emotional understanding, you know, our emotional underpinnings. We're we're just not able to do this. Um, and luckily, there were multiple people feeling that as well. So then that conversation was a lot easier because it wasn't just me saying, like, uh-uh, this is too far, this is too much. Um, but it was this well, we have to help get them to this space. And I'm like, when are they gonna help themselves?

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yes. I so this is a conversation I've had with one friend in particular a lot, but I've had it with a lot of with several other people too. But sometimes we care more than the person we're trying to help.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Oh, true.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

And and you you have to stop caring more than they care because you burn yourself out. You know, but it's it it is so hard because you want so much, and you can sometimes you're working with a student and you can so clearly see a path that would make their life easier or help them thrive a little bit more, and they are not ready to take it. And you care more than them, and that's when you get exhausted. I one of the ways you can get exhausted.

Technology, News, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Truthfully, yeah, yeah, totally. You care so much that you put yourself at risk, right? Your balance is completely thrown off. I I don't know how many times I gone home coming from a high, high risk uh level issue, um, and sitting there and having to try to decompress. Yes, yeah, right. Trying trying to find my own sense of balance and just being like, I'm stuck. Uh I'm totally stuck in this space, and I do not know how to get out of this space. Um, and it took me hours to just, you know, come to some kind of level of balance or come to the equilibrium and saying, like, okay, I can now function. And, you know, luckily being around staff and people that understood that, right? I think if I was in a space and uh, you know, there's a lot of people that are that don't have that support around them, and they are wandering around, not understanding that they are super impacted by a situation and they have literally no balance in their life right now. Um, it's a very tricky, tricky space.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Um I think like what you said about having people around you, you know, if you've got colleagues or supervisors who understand and who you can talk to, it's so helpful versus when you're in a job where you're not able to have some of that processing with colleagues around you. You know, I've had experiences with both. It's so helpful because you know, you might go home and talk to people outside of your work life, but they don't fully understand all of the nuance to a situation versus people who do the work with you have a and you I think it's important to have both points of view, yeah, but to have people who who understand is really helpful to talk to.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

No, totally, you know. So I just did this other uh uh session, a research session with um Gallup. And it was actually uh really cool. They had just uh they're just promoting this new research that they did about the importance of best friends at work or having really good positive relationships at work, right? Because work is a social, social space, and the relationships you have there really do affect how you are navigating the world. Because we spend, like you said, we spend eight hours at the office, and those are the people that we are engaging for eight to ten hours a day. Um, and if you don't like your call co-workers, usually that's a sign that you're not gonna be there for that long, yeah. Right? Like that's usually the first sign that that's not really the place you need to be. Um, so it was a really interesting study. But so a part of this study, this research was that if you feel that your the people around you at work have your has your back, right? And they're people that you can open up to, you can talk to, you go to lunch with, and you're sharing more than just the professional space, but you're also sharing your personal space, they're like you're three times more likely to be engaged in your work and feeling fulfilled in that work because you have people that you connect to on a deeper level than just the superficial job stuff, right? Just the professional. They're not saying that the that's superficial, but sometimes if you only have the job stuff, um you know, and you don't go into those diving deep, that means you're not really sharing who you are, right? And you're not and you're not making those connections. So um, so that's also an important aspect of balance, right? Like even at the job, you need to be able to have a sense of to be yourself and to feel comfortable with yourself because you have people around you that can support you and be able to to give you that sense of balance when you when you're stuck, when you're having a rough day, or or you're you're trying to tackle a really challenging situation, uh, and you have someone you can rely on. Um that's a huge part of that balance as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Absolutely. That's really interesting research. And yeah, I I would agree it aligns with my experience too. But because yeah, you need balance, not just balancing your work and your life, but balance within the work itself.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. In right, in all aspects. And we're we're only talking about work right now. We haven't even entered into the into your into life, right? Like we're only talking about one aspect of it. But balance, you know, through this conversation, it balance is such an important aspect that we should all be seeking. Um, but I feel right now in our world, our world is truly out of balance. Right? I there is is very little stability in the world or something to look to forward towards or towards for stability. Um that's really tricky.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

It it is tricky, yeah. When there's you, I think like a sense of hope or something, or you you knowing, okay, this is difficult right now, but it has a time limit on it.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Right.

Money, Mission, And Burnout

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Yeah, because I've been in situations like, well, you know, like I did a summer internship and I didn't really enjoy the place I was living, but it's going to end in six weeks, right? So easy to get through, kind of easy to deal with. I think in our world right now, there's no sense of when the instability will end. That's that can be draining in a lot of ways and impact balance and energy levels and and you know existential dread about the world can start to seep into other aspects of your life that yeah, make can make day-to-day challenging, right? I mean, I think I think about um when the the January um insurrection happened and was in a meeting with a colleague and we joined this Zoom meeting and we just said, what is happening right now? Like what what what are we seeing on TV?

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Like I like how do we even like understand this? And then we had to just do the meeting, the work meeting, you know. And but it it things seep in, right? It's hard, I think it's harder in our world now to kind of with a 24-hour news cycle impacting your life all the time, that starts to seep into work. It starts to seep into your life balance. You you you read a news article at 9 p.m. and then you can't sleep. And you know, it it I think it makes it much harder to maintain any balance. And you I there are days when I only read headlines on the news, I can't handle the details. I try not to read news past like 8 p.m. so that I can sleep. You know, it you yeah, I I've had to find balance in like other other ways with what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Oh wow, that's a you know, we uh that's such an interesting thing to connect to, right? The technology, the information network, and having to unplug to be able to gain a sense of balance to reorient yourself um to to to your to where you need to be, right? Because you're right, like the headlines, reading, even reading headlines. I you know, I'm not even in America, right? I'm in India, and I read the headlines and I'm like, I can't read the headlines. I can't, I this this has very little impact on me besides the fact of like I just shake my head as an American. Um but like I'm like, uh, okay, I can only read this and I'm gonna move on. I've I've also significantly cut down how much I look at the news on my phone. Um yeah, and and that's a huge part. Now the other issue of of balance is how much do I look at my phone? That's a that's a right, that's another aspect of of technology, right, really imposing itself into our lives, uh, and kind of throwing our balance off. You know, what you see, what you're hearing, what you're reading, um, really does throw off your balance. Um, but please listen to this podcast, listeners. This as I say that, this is a form of technology. This is technology that helps you.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Um I don't yes, I love my podcast on my phone, but then what I don't like is like for work, I have to have duo login on my phone.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

So then I have to, you know, put my password in and sends a thing to my phone. And I try not to look at my phone at work, but then I have to look at it to log into whatever program I'm using, and then I see all the news headlines, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

And it's that distraction.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Right. Yeah, that's hilarious, right? It's you have to use it, but you know you really shouldn't use it.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Exactly. It's like I don't want to, but I have to, and then I'm like, what's happening?

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Like, why is my life like this? Yeah, no, it oh wow, it it really all does come down back to balance, right? We are we are in a space where I I love how you put it, hope. We're looking for hope. Yeah, we're looking for that connection of hope to help us. And as we were talking through it, I was like, sometimes I I kind of want predictability. Predictability kind of brings stability itself, right? Because you know what's coming around the corner, and you can prepare for what's coming around the corner, which gives you a better opportunity to to meet that challenge, right? If it's a challenge, or to to welcome the opportunity if it's an opportunity, you know, the predictability. And right now it is hard to predict anything. Uh yeah, right, more unknown and I would say just ridiculous things are being pushed into our psyches, into our faces, and it's just completely throwing our balance off.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Um, and I yeah, and and I think we're all or most people are struggling with how to deal with that.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. And and yeah, I you know what, you gotta take care of yourself. We said this earlier, right? You gotta take care of yourself, and you gotta put yourself up as a first priority, um, and and not put others, you know. Other folks gotta be two and three. You need to be the number one, yeah. As we're getting close to time here, what would you like to share with the listeners uh about balance?

People Pleasing And The Helping Professions

SPEAKER_01 50:15

It changes what worked for you 10 years ago isn't gonna work today. What worked for you yesterday might not work today, right? I think every day is different in our world, but also just within yourself. You know, what is happening that day? Weekdays versus weekends can be very different. Um just what you have going on that day, how you wake up feeling. I mean, I wake up feeling different every morning, right? And that can inform what balance is that day. Do I you know, I think about this past Sunday, I woke up and I was just so tired, even when I woke up and I went walking with some friends and felt a little better.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

I had lunch with friends scheduled, and I was like, how am I gonna get all the things done and need to get done today and have lunch with these friends? I really want to see them. And one of them was sick and canceled, and so we all canceled. And I was like, you know, I'm a little sad that I don't get to see them, but now I get to sit on the couch for an hour and rest. And I I needed that rest, right? Like I felt a lot, a lot better. Um, and so I think you you you've gotta pay attention to the signals that you're getting from yourself and from the people around you too. I mean, uh I've had people around me say, hey, you look tired today. Take it easy, you know, and you're like, oh great. Okay, this is noticeable to other people too. Um, and I think just pay attention to those signals and what you can do about them, making small adjustments. Like finding balance doesn't have to be completely completely changing your life, but just small little adjustments to help you be in balance each day.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

Yeah, thank you so much. That is that's a beautiful insight. And thank you for coming on to the podcast and sharing your thoughts about how you know what makes us seek balance. Um, it was a wonderful conversation, and I thoroughly, thoroughly appreciate you, Susie. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me on, and it was really fun opportunity to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Thank you for listening to What Makes Us. Make sure to rate or review this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or send it to a friend who you think will enjoy this podcast. Thank you for sharing your time and see you soon.