an Expat with Dorothée Chareyon

What if “home” isn’t where you were born, but where your habits, friendships, and values finally make sense? 

Brian sits down with Dorothée Chareyon, a French educator who has lived in China, Hong Kong, and now India, to unpack the lived reality of expat life—beyond visas and job titles. The conversation threads through identity, safety, community, and the quiet rituals that either divide us or pull us closer.

Dorothée offers a clear, human definition of an expat—someone who lives and works outside their home country—and then complicates it in the best way with stories. We explore the peach vs coconut model of culture, why “yes” can hide “no,” and how saving face shapes communication across Asia. From open doors in apartment buildings to honking as road language, everyday norms become maps you can learn to read. Along the way, we talk about building community after moving during COVID, the pull of local friendships, and the unwritten rules you only learn by asking a neighbor instead of a guidebook.

Food becomes a passport in its own right: Kerala fish curries, South Indian coffee with chicory, and India’s many kinds of spinach sit alongside France’s endless cheeses. We compare traveler vs tourist mindsets, and how language—asking for a “parcel,” ordering “filter coffee,” choosing “Americano”—signals respect. There’s a deeper current too: leaving home can sharpen your view of it. Brian shares candid reflections on safety and belonging, and why raising a child in India changed his sense of what matters. Dorothée describes the freedom and challenge of a life abroad, and how simplicity on a Ladakh trek recalibrated her idea of comfort.

If you’re considering life abroad or want to thrive where you’ve landed, this conversation offers practical guidance and honest encouragement. Do your homework, then make space for surprise. Learn local codes, taste the local story, and let the place change you. Enjoy the episode, and if it resonates, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.

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Transcript

Welcome And Episode Setup

Brian 0:07

Welcome to What Makes Us. This is a podcast exploring and how we develop as people through our experiences and connections between individuals, with groups, and amongst society. We'll be bringing on guests to discuss how they've come to be who they are. And along the way, we may end up learning something about ourselves. So please sit back and enjoy your listening to What Makes Us. Welcome to What Makes Us. My name is Brian Hooks, and uh we have an amazing episode today. I'm really excited about this conversation because in two parts, uh I get to I'm meeting someone new, uh, and not necessarily in my circle of folks. So this is really exciting. This is a new circle. Uh, and so I'm really excited about this. So today, our episode is What Makes Us an Expat. Uh, and with me, I have Dorothy here with me, and she does amazing stuff. And I'm really excited for her to introduce herself to the audience and to have a really good conversation about what makes us an expat. So, uh, without further ado, Dorothy, thank you for coming on to uh the podcast today and and sharing your experiences. And can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what got you interested in this topic?

Defining An Expat Beyond Paperwork

Dorothee 1:31

Okay, so hi everyone. My name is Dorothée Charreron. My friends call me Dottie as a nickname, so I can either be called Dorothy or Dottie. I'm from France and I'm from the eastern part of France in a city called Lyon, L-Y-O-N. That city I love it because I've been here since I am two years old, and uh I left my hometown when I was 27 because I did home studies. Okay, I studied uh English and I studied French as a foreign language, and in a way I can say that this makes me uh foreign languages is what makes me because after uh 27 I left my country, France, for China, and I started my career as a French teacher, and I started to teach in a university in the north of China. Uh, then for eight years I went to teach uh French and Spanish in Hong Kong. After that, I went back to China two years in Beijing, two years in uh Shanghai. Wow, and I discovered the I discovered teaching in international schools and I'm teaching the international baccalaureate. Okay. I'm focusing mainly on secondary, and I have taught French, Spanish, and English, but French is my major, but I've taught these two other languages, so I've been an expat since 2004, so I can really say that being an expat is what makes me, and since I'm a child, I've always wanted to work abroad because I've always traveled with my parents.

Brian 3:12

Okay.

Dorothee 3:12

And when I was a teenager, my parents sent me to England to learn English. And then when I turned 21 for a year, I went in the US to practice English as well. Uh, then I went back to France to study, and then I was in Asia, and I've been in India since 2018.

Brian 3:35

Okay.

Dorothee 3:36

I've been there for seven years and a half. And I think being an expat is really my identity, and I don't think I would be the person I am right now if I wouldn't be an expat.

Brian 3:48

Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, that is amazing to have so much experience in going through all these different countries um and learning about those communities. Um, I also want to say Dorothy is also a podcast host. Um, and your podcast is focused on what again?

Dorothee 4:06

So the name of my podcast is called Navigate Across Borders. Uh and the reason why I decided to choose this uh title is because every time I say I'm an expat, I have so many questions about what it means. Uh, what are the people I meet on a regular basis? And in this podcast, I invite either people who are from India and who are used to uh communicate and live with people from different cultures, or I can also interview expats to understand why they decided to be expats and what does that mean for them. I also interview people who are married with people from different cultures and different nationalities.

Brian 4:49

Nice.

Dorothee 4:49

So it's a cultural podcast about uh you know cross-cultural communication. What does that mean to work with people from different cultures? And actually, Brian and I uh met each other in a group when I was looking for guests, and interestingly, I'm his guest first, and then he will be the guest of my podcast because I think he has very interesting things to talk about.

Brian 5:14

Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's a definitely good reciprocal kind of situation. I and I was gonna bring it up of how we uh met because it was through the International Club of Bangalore, which is uh a club for expats here in Bangalore to But there are also many Indian people who lived abroad, yeah, exactly.

Dorothee 5:33

Which makes it what makes it interesting.

Brian 5:35

It totally does, it totally does, because then you get this like flavor of folks that are coming back to India, also coming back to Bangalore because their family's there, but they've been away for 30 years in US, in Europe, and Australia, right? Like they've experienced life outside of India for a long time, and they are almost essentially uh, you know, they have assimilated or acculturated into that community. So um awesome, it's a great group, and I love the opportunities that we have to meet. And I got to meet you there, so that's a uh a bonus.

Dorothee 6:09

And probably we're gonna make more episodes together.

Brian 6:12

There you go. There you go. I love it, I love it. So I I think you actually brought up a great question because I I know I get this a lot. What is an expat, right? Like, I I know a lot of people when I tell them that I'm living in Bangalore, I'm living in India, they're like, Did you did you give up your citizenship?

Dorothee 6:30

Like, that's a good question. I never got this question.

Brian 6:33

That's right, yeah, because a lot of US folks are like, What do you did you did you give up your citizenship? You're not uh American anymore. And I'm like, Well, no, I just live in another country. So, from your experience, you've gone all over the place. What did what do you think? Uh, and what would best describe an expat?

Peach vs Coconut Cultures Explained

Dorothee 6:52

That's a very good question. And to answer this question, I would like to tell a story that happened to me two or three years ago. So I was in France and I was looking for a place to invest my money, and I got in touch with this guy who helped uh French people to invest their money. And I told him, you know, I my revenues are in India because I live and I work in India, so I don't pay tax related to my revenue in France, but in India. And then he said, Oh, this is going to be very complicated. And then when he got back to me, he said, Oh, my bosses told me that you say you are an expat, but uh we are not sure this is true. And I'm like, What do you mean you're not sure this is true? I live and I work abroad, and this makes me an expat. So this is my definition of being an expat, is when you are from a country and you don't live and work in your country. This is what I call being an expat. Also, you live and you work in a place, so I'm a French citizen, but I live and I work in India, so my life is in India, and I go back home twice a year for my holidays, and this is what makes me an expat. Now, what makes me an expat as well is that over the course of the years, I have learned how to understand people. And I've made a lot of mistakes because if you are an expert and you don't try to understand who people are, meaning where are they from, what is their culture, why do they communicate a certain way, why do they react a certain way when you say something or when you do something? I think as an expert, you need to be open-minded and understand that people don't think like you, they don't act like you, and they don't do things the same way. For me, this is what it means to be an expert. Like you can't consider yourself as an expert if you don't try to understand people who are different from who you are. So there's a lot of open-mindedness to take into consideration, and the fact that I am teaching uh like a foreign language, this has also taught me what it means to speak another language, but also to teach a culture which is connected to that language. And I would say you teach cultures which are connected to languages, because if I take French, for example, French is spoken on all the continents, and every continent has a different culture. So France, uh, if you if you go to some areas in Africa where people speak French, they have a completely different culture uh than people who speak French in France, Belgium, Luxembourg, or Switzerland, for example. And even within Europe, people speak French, but they have a different culture. And even within my country, they are French people, but we have uh different ways of behaving. So I'm gonna give you an example. I'm from the eastern part of France, and in that part of France, people are very reserved, they are very shy, and they don't talk about themselves very easily. You have to get to know them before they give you private information.

Brian 10:20

Okay.

Dorothee 10:20

But if you go to the south, people are seen as more friendly and more open because they're gonna come to you even though they don't know you, they're gonna smile at you even though they don't know you, they're gonna give you information about themselves, and they are going to expect you to give information about yourself. Whereas in my country, but also in the west of France, people are very modest and they are very quiet about themselves. And sometimes you need to wait for several years before you get to know them.

Brian 10:51

Wow. Yeah, okay.

Yes, No, And Saving Face

Dorothee 10:53

So, this is what we call, uh, according to some authors who wrote about this, the peach culture and the coconut culture. So, I don't know if you've heard about this.

Brian 11:01

No, no, I haven't.

Dorothee 11:02

So, the peach culture would be like people in the south of India. When they meet you for the first time, they want to know everything about you. Uh, who are you? Are you married? Do you have any kids? Um uh where are your parents? Why are you not living with your family to India? So, this is a pitch culture. People expect you to be open about yourself, about everything about you. But a coconut culture is more where I am from. Uh coconut is very hard to break. So it's hard to break into someone's personality or get to know who they are, okay, because they don't say anything in the very first time and they don't smile at you. I mean you come to them and like, oh, who is that person who is coming to see me? But then a coconut inside is very soft, right? So once you break the shell of the coconut, then you are welcome, you are the friend, and warm, uh, people are getting warmer, and it's a real friendship that can last for a long time. Whether in the south of France, where people are more peach, they're very friendly from the start. They say they're your friends, but they might not be your real friends. If you need them, they might not be there anymore. Yeah, because in the middle of a pitch, you have a hard shirt.

Brian 13:17

Yeah, you got to pitch.

Dorothee 13:18

Exactly. So, this is the difference between a peach culture and a coconut culture. And I think as an expat, when you communicate with people from different cultures, you really need to understand where they're from to understand why they do certain things.

Brian 13:34

Yeah.

Dorothee 13:35

So, another thing I have noticed in India and in countries of Asia, okay, saying yes and no is different. So, for example, in India and in many other countries, because they don't want to have an argument with you, just because they say yes doesn't mean they're gonna do it. They might say yes because they don't want to hurt you or they don't want to have an argument, right?

Brian 13:58

They don't want the conflict.

Dorothee 13:59

Because saying no in India and in many Asian countries is seen as oh, this is going to create an argument, and I don't want to give it right.

Brian 14:07

It's face, right? It's the it's losing face.

Dorothee 14:10

Exactly. Whereas in my country, if you say yes, it's yes, if you say no, it's no. And it's there's nothing wrong with saying no. So when you work with someone from different cultures, you really need to understand what they mean when they say yes, and what do they mean when they say no? Why are they never having an argument with you? Is it because they are scared of you, or is it because in their culture they never have arguments in public?

Building Community And COVID Challenges

Brian 14:35

That's a great that is a really interesting. Yeah, that's a really great story. And uh thank you. Great analogy there of the peach and the coconut. I think that I hadn't heard that before, but I totally agree with it. Um, when I first came to India, um, and it was a week before I actually got married, it was my first first time in India. I was I was in Chennai, and everywhere I went, I I felt like I was being uh like almost celebrity status. Everyone was staring at me. And in Chennai, it was you know, it wasn't as common to have uh too many westerners, particularly African Americans, uh walking around uh learning about the community and culture. And so my my future in-laws were were literally taking me, I was going to family to family to family to introduce myself before we actually got married. Uh and so I went to all these different houses uh all through uh Chennai um in Tamil Nadu, and uh it was amazing. Of you know, I was seeing future in-laws, so I knew I had to talk about my family, talk about who I am, you know, how me and my wife, you know, found each other, and and and whether or not they like me or not, to some degree. They're right. There was some pieces in there of like, do we actually like this person? And you know, I I absolutely loved it. And I think for me, the the real kicker was then the next week, my family came, and my family in France came for the wedding. And so then, so there was just this huge group. It wasn't a large group, it was only like 14 of us compared to Janet's large family here. But it was a huge group of folks that all of a sudden were descending into this group, into this community, and it was absolutely wonderful because they were super welcoming, and the amount of love just made it really interesting, really made it easy for me to say, like, yes, this is the space I want to be in. Now, you know, fast forward, oh my gosh, 10 years later, we decide to move here and make this our our space. And so I I totally get the idea of like culture people opening up, being being willing to talk about themselves, and also being interested in asking who you are, because I think that's one of the easiest ways to, you know, I think as an expat, one of the things I was worried about was building community, right? Where where were we gonna find connection with folks? And I have to say, the first year was actually really tough. It was also COVID.

Dorothee 17:15

So we were all you came at the wrong time though.

Brian 17:17

I I know I came at a very interesting time. So, right, it's COVID, and we were locked in our apartments, right? No one could really see anybody. Um, even the the people across the hall, we were like masks on, standing in our dark doorways talking to each other about what was going on. So um, so the first couple of years was really rough because we just, you know, uh our daughter was super young, so it wasn't like she was going to go to school, and our community was really, really small. And so trying to find those connections has been interesting. Now that COVID's done, it's been really fun to build that community because I think the first two years we weren't able to. We've been here five, and now in the fifth, fourth, and fifth year, we really started to really shine and and and build a community uh uh that we really want to be connected to here. So as an expat, I feel like that's super important. Uh, because if you're you know, some folks will look for others while you know that are similar to them, uh at least similar experience. And then other folks will kind of like I think for me, I kind of wanted a mix. I didn't want necessarily a completely expat community, I wanted a I wanted a community that was that was there of so many people.

Dorothee 18:37

And I am the uh the same as you. So I know a group of people who are who are from France, but the majority of the people I hang around with are not from France, and this is what surprises people a lot because when I say I come from France, people say, Oh, well, you are always with French people. And I'm like, actually, no, I meet them once in a while, but at the same time, I'm not in another country to be with people from my country because I want to discover, first of all, when I am in a country, I want to be with local people. Because for me, this is the best way to discover what the country is about, right? But also, these are the best people to answer your questions about your misunderstandings because before you go to a country, whether this is for a visit as a tourist, or whether this is for uh you know working there, you can read information in a in a book, and they are very good books about many countries, totally. However, they are also what we can say unwritten rules or things that you need to be there to know what this is about, and one of them in India is being able to understand how the traffic is working because traffic in India, and I'm driving, but I have to say that uh the very first times I got uh the very first months I was in India, I got a driver because I thought driving was very scary and that COVID came and I started to drive. Yeah, but then I realized by talking to people and by looking at the way Indian people are driving, this is an unwritten rule, and you really need to live it to understand how this is working. You know, India is the country where I'm horning the most because in India, if you don't horn, you have accidents.

Brian 20:37

Yeah, yeah.

Dorothee 20:38

In my country, there are many areas where you are not allowed to use your home, otherwise, you can have a fine. Yeah, no, totally quiet, but in India. And many Asian countries, uh, noise is what makes the country.

Brian 20:53

Yeah, that's a great thing.

Dorothee 20:55

And I totally forget this when I go back to Europe. I tend to speak very loud when I'm in a public place or when I'm at someone's building, I speak loud. In the apartment, I'm gonna drag the chair, and people say, My god, you're making too much noise. The neighbors are gonna go clean. And I always forget this because my neighbors are always leaving their door open. Because this is part of the culture, but in my culture, if you would leave your door open, people would wonder why they are leaving their door open.

Brian 21:27

Yeah, yeah.

Privacy, Noise, And Everyday Norms

Dorothee 21:30

It's everything is private, but in Asia, like in many Asian countries, people want to share a lot of things, right? But you don't know this until you actually live in the country. And if you go to a hotel, you might, as a Western person, you might be surprised by the level of noise. Yeah, yeah, it's not the same as many western countries.

Brian 21:54

Totally.

Dorothee 21:55

I I love this is cultural, yeah.

Brian 21:58

Totally, it's the individual versus the collective, right?

Dorothee 22:01

Exactly, yeah. Right, it's another thing, yeah.

Brian 22:05

Because we're raised uh because the US is very similar, right? As you drive, you don't honk, you only honk if someone does something really bad, exactly, and or you unfortunately are in road rage and you are worried about this person honking at you, exactly. Whereas you write here in India, it I've traveled in Africa as well, and um and the horn is a way of communication, right?

Dorothee 22:28

It is, and depending on how you horn, it means something, right?

Brian 22:33

Right, and you know it, right? You could tell if you know if someone is laying on the horn, right? They're just holding it down and they're driving really fast. When everyone is like, This guy is rude, this person is rude who's driving.

Dorothee 22:46

Like a little bit of a horn means get out of the way, and you can get out of the way, right?

Brian 22:51

Uh you hold very long, right? Right. A long horn is a very obnoxious person. That is like you gotta wait. Okay. Um, but then yeah, so communication, right? Horning horning here is about communication.

Dorothee 23:04

It is, I understand.

Brian 23:05

And and then the other part that I loved that you just talked about, because that this was a huge issue for me and my wife. What is a the collective aspect? So as we came in, you know, we're renting our house, and so the owners are people that we know and and like very much, and they used to live in this apartment, and so when we first got here, they would just come in the door, they would just open the door and just walk in and be like, Hey, how's it going today?

Dorothee 23:34

We're just oh really because they're living in the same building.

Brian 23:36

Oh, yeah, they live in the same building, and and that was the community, right? Like people would just you know, all the aunties and uncles, the older generation.

Dorothee 23:44

Oh, but this never happened to me, actually. This is interesting.

Brian 23:47

So they would come, they come in, they just they just walk in, and we're just like, Ah, hello, uh, yes, can you knock? Why are you just barging into our house?

Dorothee 23:58

But this is also the level of privacy, right? I have another example, you know, when you go to a hospital in uh in India, usually the door of the doctor is open, yeah, yeah. But in my country, you have to close the door because you know, whatever you're gonna tell the doctor is private and you don't want everyone to listen to it.

Brian 24:19

Right.

Dorothee 24:19

And I had a conversation one day with a doctor in a big hospital in Bangalore, and that doctor understood me because he did some studies in a Western country, and he was telling me, Yes, you are right. In your country, you have to close the door because you want to be having a private conversation with the doctor. But in our country, if we close the door, some people are gonna ask, but why are they closing the door? What's going on in there?

Brian 24:46

Right.

Dorothee 24:47

This is why when you are a female person, they're asking for a female nurse to be with you, right?

Brian 24:52

Right, right.

Dorothee 24:53

Because you are closing the door. So, you know, and in a way, this is a communication way, you know, like the door open or closed is a way to communicate something.

Brian 25:05

Definitely, definitely. And if you go to in here, if you go to a government hospital versus a private hospital, you'll also see that huge difference. A government hospital a government hospital, you know, people are lined up in the hallway, and that's true.

Dorothee 25:21

I have I have been there once, and yeah. The first time I'm like, oh my god, what is this? I'm not used to it.

Brian 25:27

It's very overwhelming when you first go in, especially if you're waiting to actually see someone, uh, see a doctor. And I you know what the other the other interesting thing, waiting in line. Okay, let's just be clear. Waiting in line in India is just not this doesn't exist except in the hospital when they make you line up.

Dorothee 25:46

And they I have been to a hospital very recently, and they give you a number. Oh, yeah, they just started a number, yeah, yeah, it's very rare. I've never seen this in India, and I think they're doing this because they want people to line up and come to the counter when this is their turn. And I liked it, yeah. Because lining up in India doesn't exist, does not exist. Everyone is pushing their way in and see what's going on at the airport. Yeah, when they call you on flight, everyone is rushing, but then they say no, zone one, zone two, then zone three, you know.

Brian 26:18

Yeah, it's very it's uh I would call it organized chaos to a certain degree.

Dorothee 26:22

It is in a way, and you see this in many Asian countries, so you just have to get used to it. But I know that in the US, people are very sensitive about the queue, very sensitive about the light because in my country uh people don't like to cue either. So, in a way, we are kind of Asian or Latinos, and for a long time I didn't like to queue. Um, and when I went to the US when I was 21, one day I I just came into the queue and I just didn't bother. But someone told me you have to go back right and queue properly, and I learned my lesson.

Brian 26:58

Yeah, yeah.

Dorothee 26:59

But this is also very cultural.

Brian 27:01

It is, it is very cultural. Yeah, I I just love it because you know how we navigate these new this our new worlds, right? Like our new surroundings, it it highlights what have we have been like uh imparted into us. Like for me, I still get frustrated that people don't stand in lines, but I completely understand that lines are superficial here, right?

Dorothee 27:29

If you need it, you're gonna you're gonna put yourself up there, or if they want you to line properly, they will organize the place in a way that makes you understand you have to line up, exactly, exactly.

Brian 27:41

And they and people do, right?

Dorothee 27:43

If it's organized in a way, people will during COVID, they even draw circles on the floor.

Brian 27:49

Totally.

Dorothee 27:49

That was very funny, totally, but people were very respectful of that during COVID. I found that because you had to keep this distance for health reasons, and the fact that they drew circles on the floor to say, Okay, this is your spot, this is your spot, this is your spot, you know, like people were very respectful of that.

Brian 28:10

I yeah, yeah, that's it. It was a it was uh, I mean, COVID kind of threw every everyone off, right? It changed, it changed so much of the dynamic because yes, even a year or two after, uh post-COVID, you know, people used to really pile on to each other and really, you know, kind of be in each other's airspace, which which was you know gonna be really bad because you know you're gonna be spreading it. But now people are very cognizant of like if you see someone wearing a mask, you you may it may be from this the pollution in the air, it may be from the dust up on the roads.

Safety, Identity, And Perspective Shift

Dorothee 28:46

It's true that now people are wearing masks in India once in a while, and even when they're sick, I have noticed this exactly, exactly, and it's okay, people are not necessarily shying away from no one would have thought about it, but in countries like Japan or South Korea or even Hong Kong, when I was in Hong Kong, people used to wear masks when they were sick. It's it's just part of their culture. I am sick, I don't want to pass my germs to other people, right? And I'm wearing a mask, but in my country, if someone would wear a mask in the street or in public, they would say, What's wrong with that person? Yeah, but now in France, when someone is sick, they wear masks.

Brian 29:24

Yeah, even same in the US. I think I think that's now a global thing. I think that's happening in the world. I think it's a good thing. I think I'm not against it. Yeah, no, yeah, I this is so funny. So you have traveled from to China, Hong Kong, uh oh, I was in Turkey as well.

Dorothee 29:41

I don't know if I said it. I was a few years before I came to India.

Brian 29:45

What uh as you've traveled to and lived in several different countries, what has been your experience at this point when when you think about all those different places you've been to as an expat?

Dorothee 29:58

So basically, the very first time I ended up in India, it was a big culture shock, of course. My very first time in India was when I was still in university, and my university in France had connections with some universities in Shanghai.

Brian 30:16

Oh wow, okay.

Dorothee 30:16

So I went there as a teaching practice to teach French to some uh university students in Shanghai. So, of course, a lot of things over there were completely different from my country. You know, uh, we were talking about the the collectivism versus the individualism. So this is where I discovered the concept of collectivism. Um for for example, what really shocked me when I was in China, and this was many years ago, it was at the my very first time was at the beginning of the year 2000. Uh no, it was in the 1990s. Let me think. At the end of the 1990s, okay, um, or the beginning of 2000, and what's the thing that really strikes me and shocked me was the collective toilets. Um so, for example, in in Beijing, or in some areas in uh in uh China, but these barely exist anymore. But at that time, you would go to a toilet, like a public toilet, and everyone was in the same room, so it was very oh so the the lack of privacy for me was very shocking. Yeah, uh, and the very first time I just couldn't do anything and I left. And then I talked to a friend of mine who is Chinese and she was speaking English and French. Okay, and she told me, Yes, uh, even me as a young person is kind of shocking because I'm lucky enough to have my own toilet in my house. But she says, My parents' generation and my grandparents' generation, because people didn't have a toilet in their place, everyone was in the same room to do whatever they had to do.

Brian 32:02

Oh, okay.

Dorothee 32:03

Of course, it was female on one side and male on the other side, but everyone was in the same room on different toilets. Oh, so this was the most um shocking experience I had, but also I realized how uh there was this sense of togetherness in China that I didn't see in my country, you know, because of the political regime, and in Asia people are very uh, you know, sometimes I would go to a Chinese friend's house, and in that same house you have multiple generations living together. Yeah, and you see this a lot in different countries in Asia, whereas in my country, you usually have the parents and the kids. In some family, you can have the grandparents, but it's not as often as in Asia, totally, and sometimes in India you can have the parents, the grandparents, the uncle, the auntie, the cousins. Everybody, you know, like in one single place. Uh, many people from the same family can live together. Yes, this barely happens in my country. So this is what I discovered when I was in Asia and especially in China, that I really saw, oh my god, this is so different from my country. But I liked the vibe and I like the differences. I discovered Chinese food because in my country you go to a Chinese restaurant, but it's not really Chinese food. So it's when I was in China that I really discovered Chinese food. Yeah, I really loved it, and I just liked the vibe and everything. And I guess I kind of fell in love with Asia because then I traveled in different countries in Asia, starting from there. Yeah, okay, and I liked the differences, and I liked the fact that it was completely different from my country, and this is what, in a way, attracted me. I know that some people are scared of differences, yeah. I am the opposite, I'm I'm attracted by differences, yeah. So this is what I discovered, but also uh teaching my language and my culture also helped me to understand my culture better because when you live outside of your country and you see what's going on in your country and how the people are living or talking about or behaving, because you have this uh step back and you have a different point of view, you have a different angle, you tend to see your country in a different way.

Brian 34:38

I I completely agree.

Dorothee 34:39

This is what uh expatriation taught me as well.

Comfort, Simplicity, And Rural Realities

Brian 34:42

Yeah, no, I I completely agree with that. And I mean, let's just be clear. I'm I'm not gonna hide any bones about it. My country is going crazy right now. It is it is it is not a fun space to be in, um, which is completely contrary to what I know of the US, right? What I experienced, well, I don't know if that's true, as I've experienced the United States in my multiple identities, um, what is happening is just now more out in the open. Before, you know, before it would happen in only specific communities, right? I grew up uh I grew up in Los Angeles and I uh I grew up in uh a little town called Altadina, which you know uh uh bless his heart, it's unfortunately went through major fires and and was 80% destroyed last year. Uh uh, but uh we would have police in our neighborhoods, and our police it kind of would act like how the immigration ice officers are right now in Minneapolis. Truthfully, they would they would literally terrorize the community at times, um, and specific populations of the community, uh, you know, gang members or people that they think are gang members or something like that, were or just men in general, black men in general. So now what is happening is it's it's just been like nationalized, and anyone is is subject regardless of of it. So, you know, seeing that and being here in India is such a contrast, right? Because you know, my friends and family are are kind of living in fear, truthfully. They're they're living in fear, they don't know what's gonna happen, they don't know who's gonna pop out of anywhere and you know take people away, um, which is totally unheard of in the context of if you think about America, right? That that's that's completely contrary to the story, to the myth of America that has been sold globally around the world. And in to be here in India and to be feeling like, wow, I'm blessed to be here in India, and my physical safety, my mental safety, my emotional safety is so much higher that the reason why we left was you know to somewhat get away from these, you know, these systems and and folks that were targeting us. Um and it it every day I I'm I'm thankful, truthfully. I'm thankful to be in a space that my daughter can go to school without feeling her life is gonna be threatened, or me feeling like her life is gonna be, you know, in harm's way. Um and that is just unnerving, it's just upending, right? Like my my whole context is just completely different. So, as a you know, living in another space and having to answer questions about what's going on in your country, and people are like, What's what's happening there? And I have very I you know, I have very political answers and very emotional answers to what's happening, um, and just it's it's so so different than what I initially thought uh when coming here.

Dorothee 38:01

Um also there's another point I by talking about this, um this is not political at all, but this is more connected to my family. There's a lot of people in my family who don't understand me because being an expat, you have a life which is completely different from when you would live in your country.

Brian 38:25

Right, totally.

Dorothee 38:27

And uh sometimes I have these conversations with people from my family who say, but how can you do this? Like you've been away from France for more than 20 years, even though you are French, when are you going to come back? And I always answer, I don't know if I will ever be back. For me, France has become a place where I visited as a tourist because I have family over there. So for me, it has become a holiday place and a family place. Yeah, but I don't think I will be back uh permanently unless something happens and I have to go back, simply because economically it's very tough. Yeah, and I feel Asia has been welcoming me for so many years, and I find that my professional and economical situation is much better in Asia than it would be in my country. Because if you talk about security for teachers, um there's a lot of teachers in my country who are risking their lives teaching to some students who unfortunately uh have a very complicated and difficult uh family and social background.

Brian 39:44

Right, right.

Dorothee 39:44

And this creates a lot of violence in some schools in France. And uh teachers are not heard in France for many years, like it's been lasting for a long year, and I think as a teacher, I'm very happy to be working in Asia because my working conditions are much better. Wow, I have a better economical situation outside of my country, yeah. Uh, and this is also what makes me. I'm a French person living in Asia, um, and the life I have in Asia, I would not uh change it because I'm happy where I am. I'm meeting people from a variety of backgrounds that I would never have met if I would have stayed in my country.

Brian 40:28

Yeah.

Dorothee 40:29

Uh I meet people from different professions, different nationalities, different experiences. And I would say that my social life is very diverse. Just yesterday I was invited to a restaurant opening, and I met people from diverse nationalities. And backgrounds, and the owner of the place originally from India, he lived in London for a while, and he was telling about his experience in London and his experience in India. So I think being an expert is um is giving you uh a wider experience in your life, and I think it's richer in a way, it's culturally richer, it's socially richer. Um you discover things you would have never thought about.

Brian 41:26

Totally, totally.

Dorothee 41:27

I you know, as you feel I am a more open-minded person thanks to my expatriation, and also probably I'm more flexible, I'm more open to differences and to things which maybe several years ago would have shocked me. And now I'm just used to it.

Brian 41:48

Yeah.

Dorothee 41:49

So recently, a friend of mine who is French and has been living in China for a long time, she came for the first time in India in November for Diwali, and we traveled in Assam, which is in the east of India.

Brian 42:03

Right.

Tourist vs Traveler: Food And Respect

Dorothee 42:03

And Assam can be uh a little bit challenging in the sense that it's not as well developed as Bangalore, for example. Okay, so there are many challenges when you go there for the first time. Not everyone speaks English, so you need to speak a little bit of Indian language. The roads are even worse than in Bangalore, but they are working on it. Uh, however, I have met wonderful people and I had wonderful experiences in Assam, but my friend was kind of shocked because for her, it was like she's used to her comfort, she's used to her luxury, but you don't always have luxury and comfort in India, and I think this is what makes India what it is, and I don't think not being in a comfortable environment or luxury environment doesn't make your experience nice. Yeah, you can be in a very simple environment and you can have a great experience. Like one of my best experiences in India was when I traveled in Ladakh. So Ladakh is in the north of India, right? And one year for the at the beginning of my summer holidays, we decided to trek with a guide. We didn't want to do it by ourselves. It was an eight-day trekking journey in the mountains of Ladakh.

Brian 43:24

Wow.

Dorothee 43:25

And uh the point of this was to discover the breathtaking landscapes of Ladakh, but also to discover how the locals are living. So we were sleeping in people's places, so our guide organized everything, and we discovered what it means to live in the mountains in India. The lack of luxury, the the fact that you cannot shower every day, that uh you know you have to live with the minimum, but living with the minimum doesn't make you unhappy.

Brian 44:04

Yeah, yeah.

Dorothee 44:05

And this is showing us how materialistic we are. Uh now I'm not going to say I'm not going to lie, I was very happy to go back to the hotel and have a hot shower because during this full time we were just uh you know using cold water or wipes, yeah, right. Kind of wash. So going back to our luxury of a hot shower and you know, regular toilets, yeah. Uh, but these taught me something about you know, not everyone is as lucky as we are, but at the same time, maybe these people think they are lucky as well, you know. Like if this is the only thing they know, then they're happy.

Brian 44:49

Exactly, yeah.

Dorothee 44:50

Yeah, happiness is not only about luxury and having everything you want, it's about being happy in your environment.

Brian 44:59

That I think that's a great point to bring up uh as I've experienced the simplicity. I feel like there's there's a level of simple here in India, and and it and it's not that far away from the cities, right? Like you go out into the villages, you go out to you're just driving, right?

Dorothee 45:18

You're driving one or two hours and you end up.

Brian 45:21

Yeah, you drive you drive from Bangalore to Mysore, right? On the road, and it on the old road, not the new road, not the the road that's connecting Mysore. But the old road, you just see the villages, right? People just living and doing what they do, and honestly, they're as I I love to you know stare out the window and and and kind of get a glimpse of these communities, they're they're not sad.

Dorothee 45:47

No, they're right, they're not happy in the way they live because this is what they know, and you know, I am realizing when I open my my wardrobe and my closets, I have too much. And sometimes having too much is this makes me realize do I need all of this? And and you know, so sometimes I am just wondering uh in the West, we are so materialistic about a lot of things, totally, but I know I have so many friends who have everything they want in their lives, but they are not happier than people who have less money in in the villages, yeah, because having everything you want doesn't make you happier than you know, waiting for you know having this amount of money to buy whatever you want, you know, like you work very hard and you save money and you buy whatever you want versus being able to have everything you you want, but do you really need it? Yeah, it's there is because you want it doesn't mean you need it.

Brian 46:55

Yeah, yeah. There's a huge difference between, like you said, want and need, right? What you need in life, roof over your head, food on the on the table, clothes on your back, yeah, right, and an adequate water source, right?

Dorothee 47:08

Like, but yeah, we are we are having way too much, and these and and I became aware of this when I traveled in Asia, in uh villages, and I discovered this in China when I traveled to the villages. But I have to say now, in the villages in China, they are very well developed, they have solar panels, they have the latest tractors. Um government stuff. So they're having a very nice life in many villages in China, but if you go to rural Bangalore, for example, some people are really struggling there.

Brian 47:41

Yeah, no, totally, totally.

Dorothee 47:42

I live with the bare minimum and don't have everything they need.

Coffee, Chai, And Language Traps

Brian 47:46

Yeah, I think that's a I think that's an interesting counterpoint because if you uh there's a contrast here because expats, especially people that are coming for uh a work assignment, right? They're still maybe getting funded. They're you know, their paychecks are coming from their home countries, they're just here on you know for two, three years. Uh, and so their dollar may go a little bit further, right? Like their money goes further uh than what the Indian rupee is. I think about the US dollar. If I was, you know, we live on the Indian account, you know, we're making Indian money, we're not making US money, and so what we have access to is more similar to what an uh a well-paid Indian person is, you know, uh is gonna be here. Uh so the the difference in life, right? Like how people show up and what they're experiencing in India because they have the funds, um, is you so uniquely different from just being someone that is living within the country that is you know being funded within that money, right? Within that currency. Um, I think there's opportunities, there's different opportunities that are showing up. And um, I just uh you know, I think it's just really interesting. Um, because it when you come on an assignment, you know, you're not you're you're building community, but your community is only because you're gonna be there for a quick minute, a couple of years, and then you're and you're gone. You know, I think you and I have, you know, we're coming, we've come to India with the thought process of being here. Uh yes, so that's different. It's different, right? How you show up here, you know, like how you come to a country, the reason why you come to a country is hugely different in how you show up as an expat, right? Like, if you if you're making the decision because you want to move to that space, you're gonna do a lot more, and you're gonna be, I feel like a lot more open to it. But if you are having to come here for work, because you know, work is a part of it, then that's you know, you're gonna come, you're gonna be a little different, right? Like you're your your communities that you reach out to are gonna be different. You're probably gonna want to be with people very similar to your experience versus being so open to new things. No, no, that's not always the case, don't get me wrong. That's not always the case, but I just feel like that's something that's you have to overcome as an expat. Like, what is the reason you're there? And are you gonna be open? I think you said it great. Are you gonna be open to something different, right? To do new things, because you know, I I think that's one of the things I I truly enjoy is that I get to do a lot of new stuff, even you know, if I was back in the US, I don't think I would do a lot of new things, it would kind of be the same routine, right?

Dorothee 50:37

Yes, but here India has so much to offer in the first place, right?

Brian 50:41

Right, all by itself, because we were not raised here, right? Like this is all new to us, and we get that opportunity to really to really explore and enjoy that, and hopefully not be too bad of a tourist.

Dorothee 50:54

I think that's true, and also there's something else I would like to talk about. And I had a very interesting conversation at the end of last year with another French person. So this French lady came to Bangalore with her husband and her two daughters, um, maybe four years ago, because her husband had a job opportunity here, and it was their first um experience in another country to live and work there. And so when she went back to France with her husband and started a conversation with their friends, when they came back home, they say, My God, these people are so boring. They don't have any conversation, they don't understand us. And she said, Before we were expats, we were like this, and she was not aware how different she was until she went back to Paris and had a conversation with her back then friends to realize my life in Paris was so boring. I'm realizing that in India I'm having such a blast, and she even created her company in India, which she might not have done it back in France.

Brian 52:12

That's totally true.

Dorothee 52:13

So she's doing she she realized that right now she's doing a lot of things that might not have happened if they would have stayed in Paris, and she so not regrets to have done what they have done, and she's like, Our lives is so much more interesting right now. And I'm kind of the same. Um, you know, back home. Some people in my family say, but you don't understand what's going on in in France because you don't live there anymore, and you are just in your own world and you don't get it. And I'm like, I don't think it's that I don't get it, it means I I think it's because I have a different point of view now, which is very different from yours because you live in the country and I don't anymore. Yeah, and that's why there's a huge gap between these people and me. And I have to say, when I go back to my country, I connect a lot with people who travel a lot because people who travel a lot, even though they are in their own country, they have this open-mindedness, and I can have these discussions, but someone who doesn't travel outside of the country, I find it very hard to have a conversation.

Brian 53:28

Oh, that's interesting.

Dorothee 53:29

I don't feel we have any common points.

Brian 53:31

Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting.

Dorothee 53:34

So, yeah, so some people might say, Oh, this is kind of very um, I don't know how to say it, like you think you are superior to these people. I don't think this is it. Like, I think I don't relate to who they are and what their life is, and we don't have any common conversations when we talk to each other. Uh, and this shows the how diverse is this world.

Brian 54:01

Yeah, yeah, no, no.

Dorothee 54:02

And some people in my country don't even have a passport, which is the case in many countries.

Brian 54:08

Yeah, yeah.

Practical Advice For Future Expats

Dorothee 54:09

Uh so when you don't have a passport, it gives you an idea about how open you are to go to places which are outside of your comfort zone. So, you know.

Brian 54:19

It also think it's uh it's also an access issue, right? Like I was I think I was blessed to have a family that traveled. Yeah, my grandmother traveled all over the world. Um uh early in the 60s and and and 70s when traveling was, you know, I think it was just starting to bloom of that global be that global travel, right? Um, so she traveled everywhere, and then she instilled that in in my mom, and then she instilled that in me. And so traveling, I was always there, but there I have many friends who have not traveled out of the US because they have no passport, and maybe they don't want to, maybe they're happy the way they are because they don't know something else. Yeah, and sometimes it's also you know, it's not necessarily a priority, right? Like if they think about what there's going on in their lives, it's just not a priority to go travel. They miss they, you know, it I you know, we call it the travel bug, right? Like they miss that that opportunity to to experience something that opens their eyes to a completely different world.

Dorothee 55:29

Also, traveling is like a drug. If you stop traveling to other places, you want to discover more.

Brian 55:34

Exactly, exactly.

Dorothee 55:35

But some people don't get it, they don't get it. I have everything I need in my country, I don't need to get out.

Brian 55:41

Okay, well, that's your point of view. That yeah, or or they can they're kind of they turn into those kind of tourists, the snobby tourists, right?

Dorothee 55:49

The tourist that you don't understand the I mean, see what's going on in Thailand, for example, those westerners who think that because they come with their money, they can do what they want. I actually know you cannot. Yeah, as a tourist, you have to respect the culture, and just because you're paying doesn't mean you can do what you want, right?

Brian 56:07

Right, and that's how they get in trouble.

Dorothee 56:11

Yeah, I make a difference between these two. That's a very good difference, uh, you know, like a traveler is someone who is trying to understand the country and the locals. A tourist is someone who doesn't care and who wants to eat exactly what they eat in their own country. You know, I eat this in my country. Why can I not find this in this other country? Because sure is food in the way, right?

Brian 56:37

Right.

Dorothee 56:38

So, you know, but some people just don't get it.

Brian 56:41

No, no, you know, I was uh we did a trip down to Kerala, and Kerala is uh very famous for uh fish curry, and so I spent the whole time as we were traveling. I I was trying to find the best fish curry. I I literally made that a mission to say, like, I want to try some, I I want to try all these different fish curries.

Dorothee 57:03

Well, did you find it?

Brian 57:04

I did, I did. I found a really good fish curry, but I had but I tried I literally tried it from all the places we we went to like five or six different parts of Kerala. And as we were going, I would just be like, hey, we stopped to eat. Okay, let's get some fish curry, right? Let me try it. And you know what? I think that was the that was the fun, right? That's being a I feel like that's a part of being a traveler, right? Like taking having an opportunity of an experience. I don't normally eat fish curry, fish curry is not even a part of my thought process, but because I heard that Kerala has really good fish curry and it's a part of that community identity, why not? Let's give it a try. It's right there on the ocean, and seafood is is in abundance there. So let's give it a try.

Dorothee 57:53

So we need to realize that food is culture, food is culture, totally completely country, and and if you go to a specific place of that country and you don't try the culinary specialties, you have missed out. Yeah, because uh usually there's always a story, and my hometown is like this like my hometown is considered as the capital of gastronomy because when you go to Lyon, you have to try the food from there, and if you don't try it, you haven't been there, yeah. Because this is what makes the city. This city is famous for food and is and is and has uh places where you learn how to be a cook and how to be a manager of a restaurant or whatever, because this is the place to be to learn about food and to taste good food. Yeah, and if you don't taste it, you've you're missing out, and every part of France has different uh food. This is just like India, like France and India have this in common. We have different cuisines. No matter where you go in India or no matter where you go in France, you will not eat the same thing. That's amazing, and wherever you go in India or in France, you have to taste the local food.

Brian 59:15

Yeah, that's so true.

Dorothee 59:16

Otherwise, you're missing out.

Brian 59:17

Yeah, that's so true. Some people don't get it, they don't, they don't, and I also, I mean, they get stuck in their own assumptions and and they're scared, they're scared to step out of that comfort zone to really to try something. I I totally agree with you. I that's one thing I love about India. India, you can go just a little bit outside of Bangalore, and you will find a different cooking style, a different style of Indian food. They just do something small, but it completely changes the flavor of the food.

Dorothee 59:49

But take take for for example biryani.

Brian 59:52

Ah, yeah, yeah.

Dorothee 59:58

Everyone had a different story about biryani. I just loved it. Everyone has a different story about chicken 65.

Brian 1:00:06

Oh my gosh, yes.

Dorothee 1:00:08

And I love it. This is what makes India. Everyone wants to give you their story of where biryani is from. Uh everyone wants to give you the story of Chicken 65, and even if it's different, this is what makes India.

Brian 1:00:25

Yeah, totally.

Dorothee 1:00:26

I mean, why should we have only one story about it?

Brian 1:00:29

No, no. You what you know what's funny? Um, we we had listened to a comedian, and the other the other thing that every Indian has is a story about the perfect mango that they that they've eaten. Oh, I didn't know this was uh yeah, because it's so funny. So mango season comes, and I don't here in my apartment. Complex, it's like so many different types of mangoes. I like I didn't I didn't realize you know the other thing that I think is very different is the the food itself. So spinach back home, uh there's really only like maybe two types of spinach that shows up in an American grocery store baby spinach and then like kind of like the big leaf spinach, right? Here I have seen at least seven different varieties of spinach. And it and and as my mother-in-law is telling me to purchase a certain type of spinach on Swiggy, I'm like, wait, it's not Pollock, which pollock? Which one? And there's like seven different pollocks that we have to choose from, and that has just you know, every single time I see it, it just blows my mind because I'm like, wow, how limited is the food options, is the vegetable options available to the western world to the US for me to grow up to not know that there's seven, there's seven, eight different types of spinach.

Dorothee 1:01:57

Well, these this compares with cheese in my country, you know, in front of thousands of different cheese, right? And this is what makes the country. So if you go to France and you don't have cheese, then you're missing out, and you're missing out. Yeah, if you in many countries you have maybe two varieties of two or three varieties of of cheese, but in France we have so many that we don't know the exact number.

Brian 1:02:27

Yeah, and I think that's the you know, I think that's the exciting part, right? We were talking about that being able to be adventure, right? Being able to find new things and new experiences, going to being able to travel in Asia is really nice. And being able to travel around India itself is just amazing because most Indians haven't, you know, most of the Indians that I'm interacting with haven't necessarily traveled around India itself, and and so when they go to to spaces, it's new for them as well. They've heard of those spaces, they understand potentially what's going on, but it's still a new experience, it's different food, it's different customs, you know. Uh, from the north to the south, you know, huge differences. You come to you go up to Delhi and it's all about chai, it's all about tea. You come to the south, you come to Chennai, uh Bangalore, it's about coffee, right? Like the coffee.

Dorothee 1:03:26

Yeah, because we are close to coffee plantation, right?

Brian 1:03:28

Right, right. So the coffee is super important.

Dorothee 1:03:31

Um because and you know, before I came to India, I didn't know that India was growing coffee. I had no idea. And to be honest with you, uh, I would not drink coffee before coming to India because I didn't smell, I was more into tea. And then when I started to travel uh in different parts of India, I started to visit coffee plantations and I started to learn about the coffee in India and I started to taste it. And I'm drinking coffee since then.

Brian 1:04:02

Yeah, yeah.

Dorothee 1:04:02

For many years I didn't drink coffee, and India, I think, is the seventh producer or exporter. Yeah, uh, but I didn't know about this. I very few people know about it.

Brian 1:04:15

Yeah, I love South Indian coffee. My family loves South Indian coffee.

Dorothee 1:04:19

I only have Indian coffee, yeah.

Brian 1:04:21

Because it, you know, it's the you know, the the blend is the uh you have the coffee ground and then you have the chicory, and so the blend is uh uh you know for South Indian coffee, you know, if you have a 60 coffee, 40% chicory, it just tastes so much nicer, and then how you you know how you're draining it, using the the coffee filters, I you know, I just love the whole ceremony of it, truthfully.

Dorothee 1:04:46

It is, and you know, I had like a control misunderstanding um in one coffee place in my early years in Bangalore. So I go for breakfast with a friend, and and I say, Oh, I would like coffee. And the man says, Oh, do you want filtered coffee? And I say, Yes, and then he comes with uh coffee with milk. And I I never told you I wanted coffee with milk. You say, Well, you said you wanted filtered coffee, but filtered coffee in India means coffee with milk, yeah. In my country, it means it's dark coffee coming from the filter machine, but you don't add milk, so for me, it's very cultural. So if you want just a black coffee, you say Americano or Espresso.

Brian 1:05:30

There you go.

Dorothee 1:05:31

I didn't know that, yeah. So this is something to know. Filtered coffee means coffee with milk, yeah. So you really have to know that because I drink black coffee and that's it. So this is why my coffee has to be super good, and I'm very picky about my coffee, and I and I buy it only in beans, yeah. Yeah, so um I never have coffee with milk or coffee with sugar, it's just coffee by itself.

Brian 1:05:58

Wow, I'm I'm totally opposite.

Dorothee 1:06:01

I have it just like this.

Brian 1:06:02

Yeah, I'm totally opposite. I came in, I I knew what filter coffee was, right? So I knew it was gonna be milk. So that when I go to the US, because I'm a Starbucks guy, on my Americano, I always have milk with it. I always have milk with my coffee.

Dorothee 1:06:18

The opposite of you, I'm against Starbucks. So I have a Starbucks next door, but I never go. Yeah, I like the small coffees where you can have a conversation with the people. So you you know, like I think it's a completely different experience.

Brian 1:06:33

It's a totally different film, it's a it's a very different film. So I I actually, this is interesting. So I was at a store, I was at a place, uh they had filter coffee or Americano, and for the day, I was just like, you know, let me get an Americano. I use always have filter coffee in the morning. So I got an Americano and he gave it to me, and he gave it to me black. I just looked at him like, why is this black? Where's the where's the cream?

Dorothee 1:06:56

Latin Americano, that's what it is.

Brian 1:07:00

Yeah, yeah. For me, it wasn't. I was like, Where's the cream? The guy looked at me crazy. He was like, Wait, you want cream with this? I was like, Milk, can you get can I have milk? So yeah, yeah, so this cream is completely different. Yeah, yeah, it's very different. It is very different.

Dorothee 1:07:16

Um, yes, and in France, you have different names for the different coffees you want, so you really have to know what you want, which yeah, what you want it properly, otherwise, you are not going to have what you want.

Brian 1:07:27

Uh yeah, here it's either I I think the biggest difference for you know in the US chai is tea here. That's just tea. But this is tea with milk. Yeah, it's tea with milk. But how we how we ask for tea usually is a tea bag, right? It's like it's like uh chamomile tea or something like that. So for here, when you say tea, you're gonna get chai, you're not gonna necessarily get like the tea bag stuff. Um, and that's and I a lot of people, a lot of my friends who come to visit, that was a huge difference for them. They're like, Oh, yeah, they're like, hey, do you want some tea? And and all of a sudden they have chai in their hands. And they're like, Wait, I didn't order chai, I wanted like a tea bag. I was like, uh, you gotta, yeah. So that's very different here.

Dorothee 1:08:11

No, you have to specify it.

Brian 1:08:12

You gotta specify that's the thing you specify, right? If you want a tea bag or if you want actual tea, they'll say green tea versus chai.

Dorothee 1:08:21

Exactly. Like, do you want breakfast tea? Yeah, breakfast tea or green tea or chamomile.

Brian 1:08:26

Yeah, they'll they'll be like, oh, okay, you want the teabag thing, you don't want you don't want our usual tea. And I have to say, you know, tea here is very good. Um, it's super good. But so as we as we continue this conversation, you know, what is it that really has if people are making the decision to potentially come and and travel to another place, and not just travel, but to actually potentially live in another country, what would be what would be your advice for them?

Dorothee 1:09:00

I think the first advice I would give is don't plan too much and be open to surprises. Now, maybe you need to do a minimum of homework, not to be uh in a in a culture shock. So reading information about the country or reading books written by local people of where you are going to, because I think literature can help you understand the culture. So reading books, um, going on uh forums where people talk about their experience could be helpful, however, be very careful of stereotypes because sometimes on those forums you do have uh stereotypes about the locals, which are not always accurate, yeah. Or maybe have a conversation with someone um who has been living there for some time and get in touch with them, and or you know, say for example, you live in the West, see if someone knows any Indian person if you go to India, and maybe you can sit together and have a conversation about India, but then don't come with a very detailed plan, you know. Let surprises come to you, and and this is what I do when I come to a place. I always talk to the locals and I say, what is there to visit, what is there to eat, what is there to do that wouldn't be in a tourist guidebook?

Brian 1:10:36

Yeah, oh that's great.

Dorothee 1:10:38

Meet the locals and learn from them, yeah, and forget about what you do in your culture and try to understand what these people do in their cultures so that you don't fall into a cultural misunderstanding or a lost in translation, and don't assume that the way you think is going to be the way they think, don't assume that what you're gonna say to someone is going to be understood the same way as in your country.

Brian 1:11:11

Yeah, yeah.

Dorothee 1:11:12

Because if we look at India, there's a lot of people who speak English, but they they do have their Indian English as well, right? So, for example, the very first time I was in India and I wanted to do a takeaway, it's not everywhere that they understand what a takeaway or a doggy bag is, and actually they say a parcel. Yeah, but in our countries, a parcel is a box that you receive from the post.

Brian 1:11:39

Okay.

Dorothee 1:11:40

Um, so the very first time I was in a place and I wanted to do a takeaway, someone who was speaking English explained this to me. And so I think maybe reading about the words they are using and what they mean could be useful.

Brian 1:11:57

Yeah.

Dorothee 1:11:58

And I think if you go there for work or as a traveler, it's two different things. Like if you go there for work and you need to negotiate something, you really need to understand how these people are negotiating. Otherwise, you might fail because you completely misunderstood each other. Uh, if you go there as a traveler, if you don't want to be seen as a rude person, try to understand the culture codes.

Brian 1:12:25

Yeah.

Dorothee 1:12:25

So these are the different things I would say to anyone who wants to go anywhere in the world. Like, don't impose your culture, be open and try to understand who these people are. This is what I would say.

Closing Reflections And Sign Off

Brian 1:12:40

Yeah, yeah. That's I I think you said it there. Don't impose your culture, right? Be and be open to new experiences.

Dorothee 1:12:47

This is the case of many westerners, like they think everyone is like them when this is not the truth, you know, everyone is different. Yeah, so be open to differences.

Brian 1:12:57

Yeah, yeah.

Dorothee 1:12:57

This is what I would say.

Brian 1:12:59

Yeah, I uh thank you for that. Thank you for that. Well, with uh with our time today, I I really want to thank you for this conversation, it's been absolutely amazing. Uh, and uh, I'm looking forward to our next podcast, which is gonna be your podcast, exactly.

Dorothee 1:13:15

And you're gonna tell a lot about yourself. Like you've been saying a lot of things, but I didn't ask any questions because I wanted to be a surprise for my podcast episode.

Brian 1:13:25

There you go. There you go. And thank you so much. Thank you, Dottie, for for being on the podcast today, and uh and for some really great, great wisdom on being an expat. Uh, you know, it can be a lot of fun, but you also gotta really be careful about you know how you show up in those spaces. Um so thank you for that.

Dorothee 1:13:45

Thank you very much, and uh, I will see you soon then.

Brian 1:13:50

Thank you for listening to What Makes Us. Make sure to rate or review this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or send it to a friend who you think will enjoy this podcast. Thank you for sharing your time and see you soon.