Plan With Purpose with Clint Jasperson

Money is one of the fastest ways to reveal what we really believe about safety, worth, and the future and it can either pull us into fear or push us toward clarity. Brian sits down with his longtime friend Clint to unpack “planning with purpose,” a values-based approach to financial planning that goes far beyond budgets and retirement math. We talk about how the loss of a parent can create financial shock alongside grief, why many families never get trustworthy guidance, and how that experience can shape a lifelong commitment to better preparation.

From there, the conversation opens up: stewardship, contentment, and community. Clint explains a stewardship framework that treats money as a temporary responsibility, not an identity. We dig into the tension nearly everyone feels: ambition vs contentment, security vs meaning, and the misleading promise that the next purchase will finally make us whole. Along the way we connect the dots between financial independence and the deeper question of what you’re actually doing with your time, talent, and relationships once you “make it.”

Some of the most powerful insights come through real-life counseling moments, like navigating family crises and setting boundaries with love. We also get honest about shame, hidden debt, and why validating feelings isn’t enough if it keeps you stuck. If you’re feeling anxious about layoffs, hustle culture, or rapid change, this is a grounded conversation about financial health, emotional resilience, and finding hope through community.

If it resonates, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. What does “enough” mean to you right now?

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Transcript

Welcome And Theme Setup

Brian 0:06

Welcome to What Makes Us. This is a podcast exploring in how we develop as people through our experiences and connections between individuals, with groups, and amongst society. We'll be bringing on guests to discuss how they've come to be who they are. And along the way, we may end up learning something about ourselves. So please sit back and enjoy your listening to What Makes Us. Welcome to What Makes Us. My name is Brian Hooks, and today uh I have an amazing person with me. Going, we're gonna this is going back. We're going, this is a go back episode. My buddy Clint is here with us. Uh, and today our topic is what makes us planned with purpose. Uh and I gotta tell you, Clint and I go back. We just we just recounted here 2007, Vermont. So if you listen to previous episodes, you know Vermont is I I just live and die for Vermont. I don't know what it is. Uh and I wasn't even born there. But uh first I want to to make sure Clint says something here as you get going. Uh Clint, please introduce yourself and what got you interested in this plan with purpose?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Uh thanks, Brian, for the gracious introduction. Um, so introducing myself, I'd say that the more important things about me. So I'm a I'm a girl dad. I have two girls, five and seven, that are on my life. That's where my heart lives. Uh married to Lindsay. Um, you know, we crossed 10 years, a couple years ago. So that's great. Congratulations. And then if for the parents out there that sort of go through this, I would say, like, my over the last decade, as I've been doing this professionally, I've had the opportunity to weave together my vocation with my faith and a lot of like purposeful conversations, which we can get into that today.

Brian 2:07

Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

And so um, I just uh so those are kind of the really important things about me. And then professionally, I'd say how I got connected to planning with purpose and why it's important. My dad passed when I was really young, and that, you know, when we knew each other in Vermont, that was a that was a potent conversation for me. And I was this when we connected, right? Um, we're I was getting my master's degree in higher education student affairs. Uh, I think you were getting your PhD or maybe just master's, and then you were gonna get no? Okay. There you go. I was just yeah, yeah. So um putting you on a pedestal, but um, you know, that was a period in my life where I just really hadn't been exposed to much outside of a rural state in Wyoming. You know, I'm just this literally grew up on in a log cabin in the middle of nowhere and was exposed to things that were really good for my development. Um, you know, the the true definition of pluralism, people with completely different life experiences, way beyond um what I had experienced. And so I was really grateful for that. And and as a result, I'd say that was probably the first time in my life outside of like the rural community vibes where I felt a true definition of community. I mean, I remember getting together with uh you at Alvin's house, you know, the whole crew just kind of hanging out, and um, it was just a very nourishing time in my life. How I made the transition into the business realm was when we graduated in 2009, or sorry, when I graduated 2009, you'd already gotten your master's, there was no opportunity for me, man, uh, in that space. Like I looked for it, it just was not there. And I was looking around and I'm like, man, this I I don't know what I'm gonna do. And I, up to that point in time, I had lost a whole bunch of weight and I used to be really overweight. You know, I um since since people are listening and not watching, um, I I probably weigh like 100-185 pounds right now. I look like I work out reasonably well and those kind of things. But maybe a year or two prior to my making my transition to Vermont, I'd sort of gone through this health and wellness change due to um I basically had had had a a few years where I just had very unhealthy habits. So from about the 16 until my early 20s, I chewed tobacco and I drank alcohol and I really prided myself on those activities as a like I in college, I still was a good student, uh GPA score-wise, but it I kind of went through this transformation. And because of that, people saw that in me and I didn't know what I was gonna do. A couple I got connected to a CEO at a health insurance company in Cheyenne. Uh, she asked me, and this was before the Affordable Care Act and any of any sort of restructuring in the health insurance space. Yeah. And she was, and I had this idea that insurance companies should take on the risk for getting the people they serve healthier because it would lower claim spend and that would be a competitive advantage. Uh, because and because I'd gone through that and people had seen that, there was this local health insurance company that was like, Well, will you come build this? And the crazy thing was, um I came and did that. Like, I completely re you know, moved back to Wyoming, was not expecting that. I wrote up this business plan for free for her. I didn't realize that's what it was at the time. Cause I was like, here's how you do it, here's how through it. She's like, Hey, will you build this? And then um, I started the the week before I was about to start, she was essentially fired. And the new guy who was like 20 years her senior, very kind of curmudgeon, I would just say, you know, he within two weeks there, he's like, Hey, just you know, I don't believe in what you do. Um, so you don't have a job if you can't get this program up and running within 30 days and blah, blah, blah. So wow. What happened is I ended up going through this process where I kind of had to act like a a little bit like an entrepreneur in the sense that I got no support. I had to have a result occur and I knew it worked because I'd personally lived it. And I essentially hit every benchmark that I needed to, and I just got no support. So where it ended was I started this health coaching protocol uh and I kind of guided out from personal life experience, my my study uh in psychology, and then some of what I'd seen relationally occur in higher education student affairs, and I essentially had this connection where um you know behavioral change is like so important, and it's true for any self-actualization, right? So I became this relationship health coach and I was coaching like 500 people, and it was not sustainable. Uh, I'm not I'm not like a therapist type, like I emote with people, but I wouldn't say I get energy from that. Totally. And so I just knew I had to make a change. The good news about that program was very successful. I got recruited to Cigna, did benefits consulting for Taft Hartley plans, pension plans, et cetera. But I was having panic attacks, work, and I I was literally going through this kind of existential crisis. This is in 2011, 2010, sometime around there. I was like, man, I if I have to do business this way to be successful, I'm not sure I want, I'm not sure I want to do this. Yeah, and I was in an environment where in hindsight it was just very unhealthy. But there was, I ended up getting a new boss, and this person, I've never worked with anyone that I thought truly had the definition of like narcissistic personality disorder or like antisocial, but just no conscience. And this guy literally had no conscience. Like people think they have bad bosses, but until you meet someone where they have no empathy and they just look at people as objects, like I mean it's kind of scary, you know. And I said, it was wild. And so I was like, I gotta get out of here, and I'll always wonder if I don't leave, and I'll have that was my rationale was like, what's the what what's the thing I'm gonna regret most? Right? Staying forever and never wondering if I take a shot of myself. So I was kind of looking around. I'd always been interested in financial services because my dad, when I passed away, we were like devastated financially. Like I come from very humble beginnings, but like my dad was a teacher, mom was an office manager for dental practice. When he died, it was not only emotionally devastating, but we had no time to grieve because we were immediately like we had to sell his house, the house that we were living in. Um, he didn't have enough term life insurance to cover the debt on the house. So it was just my my mom, you know, she only ever graduated high school. She she managed from that experience to kind of work her way up to kind of live the American dream, which in in, you know, but you did it wasn't guaranteed then. And so I just remember the impact that had on me. And at that young age, I decided I would never be in that situation. And so I was like, well, maybe that. And so I kind of felt called to do that. And my wife and I had started dating in like late 2010, 2011, and she kind of got to see me go through this, you know, she was seeing some of the anxieties and stuff that I had. And I just, you know, so through that, I I checked out a couple different financial services organizations, got connected to Thrive It through a relationship with her former pastor growing up who had who was uh in the industry at the time, and that was how I got connected to Thrive It. And I part of the challenge I think in financial services in general, and and really like any business and self-actualization, but it's just it's so much a uh business based on trust, right? And uh like anything, I wanted to work with people I knew that I trusted or sort of had some due diligence there because it's one thing I had been in two business environments where essentially I was told something and immediately promises were broken and I was kind of stuck, right? You know, and so that was back in 2013. Okay, and then the rest of it's been since then. But in terms of like why I do what I do and why I think it's so important, in part it's due to like the life experience that I, you know, my mom, if you asked her why she didn't do any of the planning tied to what you typically do in fight in financial planning or having a plan as it relates to your finances and your life, what she would tell you is that she no one ever talked to her and my dad about it, or no one they trusted, you know, ever talked to him about it. And so my dad was a teacher. I try to serve people with the heart of a teacher. Uh, you know, even prior to Vermont, um, you know, psychology and business were kind of the two areas that I was interested in, and it's very relevant for what I do today. I just didn't know that. Um, and I what's wild to me is something I'm even, you know, you know, purposeful about now. But I'm really grateful because I can look back at steps in my life. And, you know, I mentioned earlier about uh the role that my faith has had and sort of how that's been galvanized in this process. I can look back in my life and literally see uh God creating the tapestry that is my life. When you're in moments of deep suffering, that's not always clear to you. And sometimes you go through those and it doesn't become clear, you know, for many people in their lifetime. For me, I've been able to connect those dots because I feel like I've had these moments in my life where these the I'll call them pockets of compost end up becoming this fertile ground for these seeds that come together later on. So that's I that's to me been one of the great rewards of the last 10 years of my life. I've been able to really integrate all that. So thankful for that. It it makes sense to me, you know.

Brian 11:16

It makes sense to me too. Wow, that's uh thank you for sharing that, man. And that was a very, very fast catch-up on Clint from 2009 when you left. And uh I I just gotta say, as a as a former supervisor to a certain degree, I'm very proud of you. And uh I think that's a it's a beautiful story about about resilience, right? Like in being able to find your pillar, to find that thing that holds you together, um, which is the uh which has been your faith and the people around you supporting you as you were finding yourself and finding finding what you wanted to do. And and that's just an amazing thing to be able to find to to piece all those things together. And I love this comp the you know, modes of compost spaces of compost, because it's got all the all that's gotta uh, you know, what it what does compost do? What is it disintegrate?

Community, Faith, And Suffering

SPEAKER_00 12:17

I I'm trying to say well it really stinks, it really stinks. Thank you, right? I mean, it's it's not you have to actively do something with compost in order to turn it into fertile soil, right? There you go. Um, even if people are not, uh if they don't have a theology or don't have sort of a relationship with a religious practice, I think unfortunately life is fraught with suffering, you know. And I think that if you don't have a protocol or a you know, for me, a spiritual practice to transform that, um, there it really diminishes the beauty you can have from those experiences, you know. And I think if anything, I mean this is kind of a a tangential aspect, but it's related to what I do because I I think just the future of a lot of work for human beings is going to be appreciating what's human about us and right, right? Uh, but the power of these self-actualizing scopes of work, you know, uh a lot of your background, you know, therapy, education, etc., most people don't self-actualize in isolation, right? You know, so my belief is that God designed us to be in relationship with one another in order to in order to achieve that. That's definitely been true in my life. And then what I'm sensing in our culture right now, and I happen to do this through finance, but I just I see all these things integrating is on one hand, I think people really want to know what it's like to feel unconditional love. You know, I think that whenever someone's really hurt, yeah, and I think being a parent really kind of tunes into this too. Like there's just such a need as human beings, we really want to feel unconditionally loved. Subconsciously, we don't even know that half the time, right? But the other thing that it, and then we could go on all over the place with this, but the other thing that's really important about this is in addition to that desire to feel unconditionally loved, I don't think people are able to recognize love when they have it always, because we conflate like Instagram conflates desire with love, for example. And as human beings, we both, right? Like we want it all, we're paradoxes and all these things. Uh and I think what's specifically like so powerful about the story of Jesus is, you know, he taught us about the power of unconditional love. But I think the reason why, even for folks that are not, don't even believe he existed or just aren't connected to that at all, the story's powerful because essentially you have someone that chose to maintain upward aim, irrespective of how they were treated, experienced deep suffering, all these other aspects. And they did so without resentment, like they chose that. And I actually think what people are searching for right now, more than the feeling of unconditional love, is I want to feel that way about something else or someone else. They don't even realize that's looking in them. And for me, having kids helped me understand that, you know, like I don't think I'd ever really understood what sacrifice that sacrifice was a gift or a privilege. Like I genuinely like those, like, I mean, it's just such a gift, you know, to have kids and those kind of things, and you know, assuming assuming that you want them and all that stuff. But I um I don't know. I so I'm I'm in an arc of my life now where I've had a lot of the stuff integrate, and we can go wherever you want to go from there, but I I I'm grateful for it.

What “Plan With Purpose” Means

Brian 15:28

I'm yeah on my face. That is I honestly, that's probably the best message you can send out to the world right now, right? Um because and I and I think you're correct. In this space right now, community, you know, community is such an important thing. Um, because uh right now our community is really distorted, but there, you know, there's there's waves of of this action, there's waves of of people needing to find each other to understand the situation that's going on around them, and not even to dive into all the other things that are happening in the US. Uh I find myself here, you know, in India, you know, uh in my faith as a Quaker, it's you know, I I love it because it's a it's an open faith, right? Like it's yeah, it's a welcoming to all communities. So I'm in I'm in a Hindu country, right? Like and it's amazing the the openness of of this community to all faiths. And it I politically there's always some back and forth here. There's a lot of different things going on. Uh, but you know, for me to come in and say, like, I'm not gonna judge this uh faith because you know they believe in a lot of different gods. There's you know, there's a lot of different gods and they do different things and do different things for people. And each uh I tell you, each community I've gone to has had a different way of celebrating and and cherishing and worshiping their their their gods, even though like two people can be worshiping the same god but have different rituals in doing it. Yeah, it's amazing. And um, and just you know, so this weekend I actually it was Republic Day, so it was uh here, it was a holiday here, it was a three-day weekend. And we went to Amnabad to my sister-in-law's family, and they were uh, and so we got to participate in one of their pujas. Um it was amazing, right? So they had a a procession. Uh they had their guru come out and he was there, he blessed the family, and then they had all these community members come, and it was like over a hundred somehow community members. They set up a whole tent. It was like a big, it was it felt like a big revival. If I was gonna it felt like a revival thing, but yeah, you know, I it was amazing. My daughter got to play and got to see this different spiritual experience. Um, she's more understanding of this faith here of Hinduism than than of course Christianity because she has no she has no connection with that. Um so it's really just this really interesting space. And so, but all of that comes back to community because you know it's not that we're in our homes praying by ourselves, we are doing that, but we're also in large fellowship, right? The the uh my my uh complex here, my my apartment complex, puts on regular puochs and like for all the major you know festivals, pungol and uh and everything else, we have that opportunity for everyone to come down and share their blessings with each other. And it's a you know, community when you don't have it, you really, really realize that you are by yourself. That's when you're at your loneliest space, and when when you said that suffering, right? The suffering of you know, not having those connections, not having that support um with each other. And uh it's it's really important. Um, thank you for sharing that. And and as we, you know, as we go down this rabbit hole here. So, what is so I'm gonna come back to us and come back to our topic. What is plan with purpose? So let's let's talk a little bit about that. But I want you to hopefully you mix it up a little bit. But what is it, what is plan with purpose? Because you said this earlier about about how your mother, you know, talked about not having anyone talk to her about financial planning. And when you said that, that resonated with me because no one, uh, you know, not until my best friend who actually did a little bit of financial planning, did lifetime insurance with me and stuff like that, didn't, you know, I was sitting there like kind of just flying by the seat of my pants, um, making making plans to some degree financially, but really and truly, you know, I we could talk about you know, Vermont and my first paychecks and how I was like buying steaks like crazy and ended up ruining my health for like a couple of years because I was way overeating steaks, but I had no idea, concept of of the idea of financial planning. So I'm I am kind of intrigued about what it you know, what is this plan with purpose?

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah, so there's layers to that question. I think um, like anything, um, you know, categorizing what we do for clients can be helpful. Just sort of so plan with purpose is this the reason why it's important to understand the framework that I operate from theologically is because that's guided how I help I try to help people make decisions with money. Okay. So most of the clients that we work with have a stewardship framework, right? I'd say, you know, actually all of them do. Um, I'd say maybe the the probably 90% of them identify as Christian, but we actually have like there's a guy that's secular humanist that just really relates to the stewardship framework. And it's it's essentially the belief that if nothing, if we don't get to take it with us and it's really not ours, right? Like we don't get to take this financial resource with us, then I I'm really charged with this sort of moral obligation or responsibility to uh be a steward of it while I am overseeing it. I think what's helpful about that is it can enable us to make decisions in different contexts. So most people think that a good financial advisor or wealth advisor does uh has a conversation around providence or provision. And that's important, right? The whole reason why we say for our future is so that we're uh taking responsibility for for for providing for ourselves.

Brian 22:42

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Right. And just like how we provide for our kids, but our goal as parents is to get them empowered. Enough and raised enough so they can provide for themselves. Totally. And I think that's really important, you know. And we all know someone that's got more than enough money that isn't happy.

unknown 22:58

Right.

Love, Boundaries, And Hard Choices

SPEAKER_00 22:59

True, true. And that the message that the answer to how much is enough is always, well, just a little bit more. And that's how we're wired. Right. And I think that um there's a paradox inherent in all of us, which is okay, you know, if you want to be content, you got to give up your ambition. Unless, of course, you accept there are paradox and realize that we have to approach both lenses. Like we are human beings, we don't always make rational sense. And so provision, contentment, and enjoyment are three lenses with which to make decisions, right? And I think it's really that's what stewardship is in practice. And so we try to help people be better stewards with what they've been blessed with, understanding that um money is a finite resource, is is infinite in the sense that they print more ever, they can print more of it every day. What tends to happen in these situations is even when people do become financially independent, there's they sort of encounter these existential moments, which is hey, you know, my time and talent is finite. I mean, Warren Buffett's one of the wealthiest people in the world, right? I doubt you would trade places with him. Why is that? Well, your time is more valuable than that pile of money that he's amassed, right? And even if you didn't have to work for money, there's a part of you that would still feel called to do something with the talent or sort of pursue growth or whatever. And so I think that thinking about it that way leads to a more integrated approach to making better decisions, you know, having having more confidence and clarity around money. And what's what I've experienced, so I thought it's funny, when I went through all, I've kind of the reason why these conversations are able to be a little bit deeper. When I first got into this industry, I was like, oh, I'm gonna serve all the all the people that look like me growing up. I mean, I did not come from uh a financially well-off background, you know. Like, I mean, we were we were devastated emotionally and financially when my dad passed away. Uh, you know, my mom has retired successfully, but that wasn't even on the horizon. I mean, I it was just a completely different um event. The challenge with that was when I started in this industry, that's why I want to serve. And I would notice, like, when I would schedule meetings and those kind of things, they didn't seem to be interested in the deep talks that have really been present my whole life and trying to help, you know, they were like, hey, just be and understandably so. It's like, man, I got kids, I can like whatever, just like place this to go. It's like not their ability to prioritize and their other business models that can sort of serve um in that stage of life, like almost a more transactional relationship, right? You buy something online or whatever, right? When people start to seek more of a relational transformation around that, or they they start to feel this, you know, they've got enough that they feel like that's important, that's where we can kind of step in and then through that use, I think through the lens of money to try to help help make the world a better place. Because what we're all marketed to, and it makes sense, right? The appeal of, oh, if I go buy that Chevy Trailblazer, or I go by that uh watch, or I go whatever it is, I'm gonna feel a certain way about myself or about the people around me. But that's that's I understand it. Like that's that's what we do in marketing, it's in the business space, and to some extent, that's a lie, right? Because we don't just because I go and buy a brand new vehicle, doesn't mean that I'm gonna have the relational capital or spiritual capital in my life to actually really enjoy it. Like there are plenty of people that have lots of material possessions that live cold and empty lives. Yeah, and there are also people, you know, based on where I come from, that don't have a whole lot but are are more wealthy relationally and spiritually. And I think that's what a lot of people want. So, you know, in a lot of ways, it's trying to bring all those aspects together. And I'm also fortunate to work with a lot of clients that have already sort of figured that out, but want someone that aligns that way and wants to continue encouraging that. So a plan with purpose is the integration of stewardship and and and feel like it is a moral obligation and then and then teasing that out in terms of how they make principal decisions through money, but it's really throughout their life. So, what tends to happen is in addition to all the you know investment management, financial products, and techniques that we can do to help people that way, they end up calling us in their best and their worst moments and asking for advice, in addition to sort of establishing a framework for doing that. And so planning with purpose is you know, the opportunity to really get to know and see somebody and help them and feel that sense of trust, right? So that then when those moments occur, they can ask us for advice and uh and and they they lean on us for that counsel. As an example of that, there was a a friend slash client of ours that uh a couple years ago called me and uh this gentleman is not Christian, uh, but his daughter what is uh was gonna potentially go to prison again. And he called me and he was like, Hey, no offense, but I feel like we need a Christian perspective on this. And I'm like, Oh good, man, that's a compliment. What do you want to talk about? And he's like, Well, and he has enough money to bail his daughter out, but you could tell he was kind of trying to figure out is this the right thing or not for her. And what's crazy is I was able to op how tell so how I see the story of Jesus is this demonstration of love is uncondition with Judas, that love is unconditional, but relationships are not. And what I mean by that is um you can love someone, but that doesn't mean that you have to compromise what is true, like, and and as a parent, you see this all the time, right? Yeah, I love C and it's still tubby time, right? Right, like those kind of things, right? And and you know, uh um my sort of attempt to relate to that with Jesus' relationship with Judas is like, hey, you know, he cried for the pain that he caused himself. I mean, yes, you know, he said, but it that aspect, right? That's a very loving thing to do. I would say it's not loving to then say to to sort of acknowledge that place and like encourage or enable him to walk on that path, right? Doesn't mean he's excluding from walking with him, you know, walking with Jesus, right? So I was talking with him about this. I'm like, well, what's gonna be the most loving thing for your daughter? That's what I hear you asking. And it's tough because um you can still love her, but figuring out the what's the most loving thing to do in these sort of morally gray areas is challenging, right? And I actually didn't give him an answer. I just I said, you know, what I hear you assessing is like really what's gonna be best for her. You know, are you by bailing her out? Is it gonna enable her to sort of rise above this? Like, what's gonna help her maintain upward aid? Yeah, no matter what he's asking. And the wild thing about that was um, you know, he he had no idea that that's kind of how he was talking about it, right? So, anyway, we got to talk about that. And, you know, another neat thing at the end of that is um, I was like, you know what? Uh well, I won't mention his name, just to protect confidence. Yeah, hey, uh, you know, my recommendation would be, you know, you called me. I would strongly encourage you to go find some community somewhere, like church, etc., would be great, just so you can kind of get connected to this. So he ended up going to the Unitarian Universalist Church that weekend because there's this sense of it's very hard to make wise decisions in these areas without relationship around you, right? And so those are the types of things I just love helping people navigate, you know, because you end up getting exposed to people's best and worst moments through this lens of money, and there's like a sense of trust and camaraderie built in journeying with them that way.

Brian 30:22

So I I mean, that's you you you're like so. That is a such a dynamic story, that is crazy, and you know, listening to it, everything about that is a relationship for that person to be able to trust you and ask such at such a moment, right? That's not an easy moment, right? You're that I mean that's I don't even know how to how to think about that. I've had friends that go have gone to jail, um, have end up in prison, and and it is tough, but it's one of those, it's a principal thing, right? I I love how you how you frame that to say like love is unconditional, a relationship is not, right?

Nuance, Ideology, And Stewardship

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Relationships should have healthy boundaries, and it's it's like what is the most love loving thing, right?

Brian 31:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

It's just um I don't know. I mean, I this is a top, this is hours and hours of of topic, but I it's just a place I spent a lot of time because I think broadly speaking, people are deeply wrestling this uh internally. Like I see this everywhere, right? Yeah, yeah, um, it's it's why emotional arguments are so effective at galvanizing uh political polarization, right? Whereas people people should sort of flip that upside down. Whereas it's like, well, and this is why I think people's theology, you know, I'm I'm part of the Christian party, right? But like I'm supportive of anybody that tries to cultivate virtue first because those are ideals, right? And we can so then it's like, well, my I my ideology should come secondary to my philosophy, and my philosophy in terms of what I discern to be true or how I evaluate truth should be guided by virtue, right? And that that is kind of a that is sort of a Western paradigm shift with um when Martin Luther reformed the Catholic Church and the printing press, and there's everything that happened in the West in terms of restructuring things, right? But that's a very, I think that that's missing right now because if I am married, if my identity is tied to my ideology, if there's a better idea that comes along, then it feels like I am wrong versus my idea. And that's what I see going on all the time, right? It's like it shouldn't be controversial to say that like uh human life is sacred and life is meaningless without free will. Those are like pretty compelling arguments. The problem is people aren't having that discussion, they're like framing it in terms of political arguments, they don't feel like they're on the same page. Well, you're actually are advocating for two different positions, yeah. And and most people don't know how to reconcile that tension because they've it's just we don't there's a whole host of topics there, but but my the way I try to make my world a better place is by helping people, you know. I I feel just such a privilege because I can sort of help navigate that a little bit more. You know, this guy that I just mentioned, the first time we met professionally, um, he didn't realize that, you know. I mean, I I don't hide the fact that I'm Christian, it's even in some of our materials, but he didn't realize it somehow, even coming to meeting. It's like he's like, you know, um, I didn't realize this before our meeting, I still took it, but I just, you know, I'm not Christian, so I don't think we can work together. And I'm like, okay, that's no problem. Um, but we start talking about stewardship, and he's super passionate about conservation, right? Right. That's so right.

Brian 33:37

That's like that's that is the that is stewardship when you talk about conservation.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

That's stewardship, right? So we talked about that, right? And so it's like and and it makes sense, right? Because we we have scripts and algorithms in our mind where it's like, well, I've got a I only have so much bandwidth, so I'm gonna put you in this box, but he'd sort of earmark me to this box, right? And I think the beauty of what's going on right now is we have the opportunity to to approach things with nuance, right? The challenge is how do we cope with nuance when the only way we see is our ideas? Well, our ideas should be, you know, so that's the I think that's that's the tension I sense in our culture right now, and my way to sort of help uh maintain community and really encourage relationship with one another is through the the money lens, you know, and and being able to pour into people, in addition to all the neat financial stuff we do in a relational way where it's like this should this should support making the world be a better place. Yeah, because I think most people want to do that. We're also, I think inherently fallible, we get in our own way, right? And so that's where it's like, well, if people have the humility to do that, let's try to do it together.

Brian 34:38

Yeah, yeah. I I love this through the money lens because uh truthfully, money is uh in no uncertain terms, is can sometimes can be super evil. But it's really about it's it's really about how you manage money, it's it's about how you are navigating the world with the resources that are in front of you, because it's not money is not the only resource, right? Um but because of our society, it has become the I don't know what the goalpost, the the the goal for most folks is to be at this point of, as you called it, financial independence, but there's nothing beyond that, right? There's like I want to make this much money and live comfortably, but what does live comfortably actually mean? You know, what do you what are you actually doing with your time, with your with your energy? Um and are you happy? I think I think you said this earlier, right? You can have all the money in the world and not be happy.

Hustle Culture And Human Worth

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Yeah, there's a there's a um on the internet right now in the social media space, there's a a prominent internet personality named Alex Hermozzi who and I don't I don't listen to a ton of his content, but it it happened to pop up, and so I I scoped it out, and he's in a conversation with Tony Robbins. Okay, and Alex is in his late 30s, uh, I don't think he's 40 yet, kind of close to that. But he's he's sort of dominated hustle culture, like created massive amounts of business success, financial success, et cetera. And it's just so apparent that he is miserable within like the first five to seven minutes. And I think um, particularly for men, um, a lot of young men I perceive to be struggling right now in the sense that there is some truth that, you know, until you find a way to contribute value to society, you're just not going to be treated well. And there's an element of sort of masculine identity formation that comes from that because you can develop tremendous inner strength and go through like the hero's journey with like Joseph Campbell and all that stuff, right? Where it's like you slip, and that's a very mask. We have masculine and feminine energy, all of us, but there's a very masculine component to that, right? Um, and it's also true that you have inherent worth as a human being being, irrespective of what you do for others, irrespective of how much you achieve, etc. And there's this, it's a paradox, right? Because we wanna we want to be good stewards of our time and our talent, so our most valuable resource. And at the same time, to be motivated by shame is not a it's not a it's it's not a very fulfilling strategy, you know. And there's a lot there's lots of academics and spiritual insight there to suggest that's not a path that you want to go down. So, how do you do that? Well, um, you know, in a lot of ways, that's what we help people with, in addition, all the financial stuff. And so um, I don't know, it's it's I think it'll be really interesting to see how our world converges over the next 10 years with all this technology increases, because um, people are gonna have to cope with this, like sort of existential question more, my opinion. Um I'm excited for that, but I also am sad because I think there's gonna be a lot of suffering for people that might not be as material as we want, but it's it's still gonna it's still real, right? Lights up pain fingers in the brain the same way that physical pain does. Um, and and the beauty is that like faith or tools like that can give you the ability to turn into compost, but a lot of people haven't prepared for it. So it's if I could end that I would. That's kind of why I'm so excited about what we do.

Brian 38:10

Wow. You know, um it's so interesting because everything you said, I feel is really resonating with me, truthfully. It's it's really resonating with me, and um, especially the suffering part because you know, I uh a previous podcast I did was what makes us us. And it was with uh my friend in Seattle, uh Travis, and he he was talking about we were we had this great conversation around the trauma that we experience in our lives, depending upon whether or not we are able to navigate it well, right? Um, really does affect how on the outcome of it, right? Like the trauma's there, you're gonna be traumatized, you're gonna have to suffer. Um, unfortunately, right? Like I that's just the human condition to us to a certain degree. Um and we and you'll love this. We use challenge and support in this context because you know, if your challenge is too much, you know, that suffering is gonna leave a scar. And that scar stays with you, and it's not something that you have to do that extra work to repair whatever that scar is, right? Because the challenge was too much. But if you have support during that suffering, during that trauma, you're able to heal faster, right? And you walk away with it. You may even look at it more as a lesson than you are from a mistake or or something that you cannot uh come back from. And, you know, as you're talking, right? And yes, and your story is about this journey, as I'm gathering, of going through this suffering, but also understanding what that challenge and that support was, right? You understood when you were being overchallenged, right? And you were in unhealthy situations, not feeling supported, uh, to be able to rise above that, right? And be able to find yourself uh this space to be truly who you are and help others. Um, and that's the clint I remember from 2009. And you know, that's the Clint I know. And in this conversation as well, flashbacking to so many times at Tiny Tie in uh Vermont as we had these wonderful conversations, right? Yeah, that's you know, I I I really believe that you know we talk about these existential conver uh questions, you know, this podcast to a certain degree is my existential question.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Yeah, right.

Brian 40:49

And it's my way of being out there to to highlight, like, you know, what makes us it's a simple question, but it holds so much depth to it. Um, and I've been amazed at how much people have have really brought to this question, to this moment of you know, how you know what makes us? Thank you for just lighting that up right now. Like he just totally lit that one up, and I totally appreciate that. Yeah, plan with purpose. You know, where do you see financial health for folks going? Like, as you said, like this this is like a huge turn. Like today, you know, it just got announced 16,000 people are gonna get laid off um from Amazon. Uh, we're not even talking about Google. Um, I'm here in India. In India, the tech, supposedly the tech hub, and you know, the uh education structure here, Indians are highly educated, but they're also severely tracked, right? Like, so they're in engineering, they're in you know, the medical professions, but then all these other professions are kind of like left to the wayside and they're not economically supported, right? And which leaves you a really interesting base. Yeah, I I'm scared to say that I see America also at some of these breaking points, right? Like the degree doesn't go as far anymore, right? You're you know, the fast cash of Instagram, uh wanting to, you know, you know, build something fast so you can make money and get out of the system quickly, right? Like all these different things are going, but there's not the you know, the work. I don't know how to say it, like the experience is being left out there. Um yeah.

Change, Hope, And Responsibility

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Uh I you know, I wish I knew what was gonna happen. I think you know, I have an opinion on it, uh, but you know, it's just that one thing that's kind of embedded in that is that sort of that security, so there's a couple different definitions of security, right? Like, okay, uh, I've been in a situation in my life where it's like, and I didn't realize this growing up, but it's like, man, you know, we I I'm grateful that we always had like clothing and enough food, but some people don't have that, right? You know, so these so if you don't have sort of your your basic needs met, like that's a there's a real issue with that. It's also true that you can find tremendous sort of joy and contentment even beyond that. And I think that unfortunately that's that we're gonna have to reconnect with that because there's there's a certain amount of choice people are gonna have to choose to do as they suffer through these things. I'm not saying that's right, I'm not saying it's wrong. I just think it's the reality that we have a tremendous amount of change coming. I'm not sure what that's gonna look like, but I do know that most human beings think they like change, but they usually fight it until it's so painful or they've they've paid enough of an opportunity cost where they finally choose to uh move forward. Yeah, right. Right. So I think that's coming, right? And that's kind of what you're alluded to. And I tend to be really hopeful about that. You know, so I look back at these these periods of time where major pieces of technology onboarded and kind of aligned with these social sentiments that it sort of built up. So I think about uh, you know, like if I'm in the United States, um, you know, there are certain principles in our governing documents that were ideals that became refined over time. So if everyone is made equal in the eyes of their creator, but not everyone can own property, there's a disconnect with that, right? Right. Right. So there's there's the principle, and then there's the sort of desire to sort of continue to pursue that and then and having A framework to continue to strive for that. Well, I I as much as I'd love to pretend, I think that the invention of the cotton gin really enabled a social transformation between the North and the South, economically, et cetera. And you have these periods where technology, you know, the assembly line.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Right, right.

Shame, Debt, And Identity Reframes

SPEAKER_00 45:07

All these kind of types of uh reformations that happened when we're clear on what our values are, that technology ends up accelerating, it's very disruptive. Right. And at the same time, if we navigate that well, there on the other side of it, there's a tremendous, tremendous amount of joy and providence. It doesn't mean that there isn't suffering along the way. I mean, during certain periods, you know, there's the Great Depression, for example, you know, and and there's world, there's world wars and those kind of things. Right. Real possibilities when social tension exists globally or civil wars that, you know, and I I think that that pain is real. And um I I think that losing hope is a very dangerous thing. Because uh, and not not to be naive, because you don't want to be naive in this, but to say, okay, I I see the challenge and I choose to maintain hope anyways. One, because that's the world I want to live in, and it's it's the example I want to set for my daughters and everything else, but it also helps me compel to take action moving forward versus being a victim. And the reason why I think that's more dignified than believing I'm uh just happening with circumstance, right? Is um it's empowering. I can take responsibility only for my part, right? I can take responsibility. And this uh a book that I read that really changed my life, there's a book called Man's Search for Meaning, Victor Franklin. I'm sure you're familiar with it, right? If someone going through Auschwitz can can choose to find beauty, or someone like Jesus can choose to find beauty despite the most horrendous of circumstances, right? If my life circumstance is so painful that I am just surrounded by darkness, there's something really beautiful and miraculous about the fact that as human beings, there are examples all throughout history that have chosen to either create light or find light despite that. Right, right. And that's the beauty of these moments of tension, is we have the opportunity to sort of find that within ourselves, rediscover our own dignity, and encourage that in another in other people. So I think the challenge is like, okay, we assume, and and again, I don't mean if you don't have if you can't eat, it's hard to have this sort of existential discussion. So I don't mean it minimize, right? And if that's truly your circumstances, it's it's really not helpful to be like, here's all the ways you're suffering. You already know that. What are you gonna do about it? And and how do you sort of connect with that sense of empowerment in a loving way that doesn't feel like you're not acknowledging the truth, but also living a dignified experience to be like you're not defined by your circumstances. I think that's gonna become more and more present in people's life experience and sort of encountering that and how they choose to respond is gonna have a deep impact on them personally. And I'll how this connects to like financial planning and like where I see this. So three weeks ago, um, I had a conversation with someone that connected with us on um LinkedIn, and they they uh they have a lot of savings set aside in their retirement accounts.

Brian 48:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

They had racked up a lot of credit card debt. So we're talking, you know, millions of dollars saved in their retirement and hundreds of thousands of dollars of credit card debt. So they compartmentalized their financial lives and the and the shame that they had about that decision and the shackling of that, despite some of these positive qualities and how unintegrated that was, right? So this person was literally so ashamed of that that the first time we connected professionally, they were unwilling to share with me that they had actually made this decision. They're like, Well, I'm not ready to tell you that yet.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Right?

SPEAKER_00 48:40

I mean, so we can have these really strong contrasts within ourselves in her mind objectively. So she's um how she saw herself was different than objectively how it was. Like if I put together a net worth statement, she was the positive, but she was overweighed by this sort of shadow piece of us, which we all have. Like when we're all my my my belief would be we're all inherently fallible. It's important to acknowledge that. So I could be aware of that, right? So you have this objective. Well, that didn't matter. Like her emotional experience was X, Y, Z. And if all I did was validate her emotional experience, she would never get to the point where she lets go of this and reframes her identity from these these are behaviors, not my identity, right? And it was it's how she got that, etc. So that's um, you know, it's a deeply psychological answer, but it's like that's really like how we're gonna navigate these challenges. We happen to do that through money conversations, and you got to be competent to do that, right? Like, if I if I wasn't, if we weren't good at helping people go through this planning process and helping them get to financial independence, all that stuff, people wouldn't hire us. But but why do they do that? You know, like why do they choose to work with us for someone else? That's that aspect because of these like little moments we navigate. And I think people are gonna be seeking that more and more. And my hope would be that because I just I know my own heart and I know the heart of others, when people go through that, there's there's a desire to live for something beyond ourselves to kind of reference back our conversation. Like most people don't even know that they want to live for something beyond themselves. Like right now, we think that oh, I need a little bit more money to be happy. Well, guess what? The the a problem that you see systematically in our culture is there are people with objectively more than enough that still don't feel like they have enough. There is no amount of money that's gonna solve that. And and that also exists for people you would think are living a substandard living, whatever that definition is. Like, I mean, literally, if you go to different cultures in different parts of the world, let's just say there is no money, it's cattle, there's always the desire to have a little bit more cattle or whatever it is. That is an inherently human condition. How do we counterbalance that? Developing a sense of contentment and how we navigate the paradox of our human experience with I want to be ambitious and I also want to be content. And I accept the fact that those are two opposing coins and consciously responding to that, you know, because it's one of my subconscious reactions are and it's like, well, I can take responsibility for that. I can't control what you know the Federal Reserve Chair does today. I can't control how my parents loved me or didn't love me. Right. What I can control is how I choose to respond to that, and that is the most dignified way to encourage people. Like, I just I think we are robbing people sense of their dignity if we only validate how they've been victimized. Yeah, right. And finance is one way to do that, romantic relationships could be another, trauma could be another. It's like it's just not empowering to be like, hey, you've been traumatized. Are do you really want to be defined by your trauma, or do you want to be defined how you choose to respond to that?

Brian 51:32

Yeah, way to drop the mic, buddy. Wow, that is deep. That is seriously deep. Yeah. How do you how do you want to be identified? You want to be identified by the trauma or by the response?

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Yeah, like you, I mean, I I think the most man, some of the most, and this really stood out to me in Vermont when we were together. Yeah, I remember meeting um people that had been they literally came over here from Africa, had been drugged, shot up their own family members because they were coveted and had become these really beautiful human beings despite that.

Brian 52:11

Right. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Like, what does what differentiates that person from someone that you that really you would say, hey, they don't, they they didn't suffer anywhere near that deeply, and for whatever reason, they just they they they never they they've chosen not to bloom or sort of cultivate that internally. Now, is it is it super true that I do not want my kids to ever experience that? Yes. Do I think that's necessary? Do I think that's right?

Brian 52:39

No, no, right.

Passion, Compassion, And Closing Advice

SPEAKER_00 52:40

I can't do anything about like I I wasn't there, and it's also like if all I did was like encourage that person to live in that space and and encourage them to believe that they're only that small, and like I just don't, and honestly, this is like what happened at Judas in the Bible, right? This victimhood mentality, right? Yes, you can be victimized, yes, you can be hurt, and my god, you're so much more capable than that. Like, there's so much beauty in life beyond that. It's not right what happens, but how how can I help you, you know, and and shame is just one of those things or this sort of this hurt that people have, right? Well, we've all been wounded, yeah, yeah. I mean, the amount of that I would say this is true for maybe more men than than women, but the the the the risk that's the people work their whole life thinking that their legacy is actually this pile of money when they end up not knowing who their kids are, they don't really know who their spouse is, they've missed out on some of the most reward the the wealthiest parts of their life, the richest part of their life. Yeah, right. So all the and I that's really what I think's so important now. And I I think the humanities, you know, like and having the skill sets to genuinely be in relationship with with folks and like to navigate that to suffer with someone, you know, like if you have passion, so the uh we have people in our life in Vermont that encouraged me. I developed the habit of studying the etymology of where words come from when they strike me. Okay. So the word passion, right? You know, Robert Nash, right?

Brian 54:11

Yeah, I was about to say, was that was this Nash?

SPEAKER_00 54:13

This is Nash. Robert Nash, right? But but um, so I I've developed this, you know, he taught me the value of that, you know. Um, like for example, I used to always be triggered by the word obedience because I had a pre, you know, that my my dad had many character flaws, you know, he's a very hard man and he had a lot, I mean, he was an alcoholic, like there's a whole other story there, right? But um, and that was part of how he died, actually. Like he died while drinking, etc. Right? He was on a path of self-destruction. But um the word obedience actually means to to hear, to listen. Like that's kind of where the etymology comes from. So if I'm like being obedient to God, it's like, well, am I actually listening to what God wants for my life? You know, am I the word passion is rooted from it? Comes from like the tie of like the passion for the Christ, essentially implying, like, well, you know what you're passionate about if you're willing to suffer for something without resentment, by the way. So if I have compassion for someone, I suffer with them. I I'm empathetic with them, I suffer with them without resentment. If I'm someone's companion, right? Like, I'm willing to do like suffer with them, right? I'm willing to journey through life with them. So um, I think I think those things, you know, if people want to feel passionate, well, have you ever really suffered? You know, have you transformed? You know, people that don't go through those life experiences, the other side of that, some of them are like, Man, I don't, I don't feel like I really can even relate.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:36

You know, and that's its own challenge. You know, people are protected their whole life from encountering moments where they actually have to respond to their own humanity and know who they are as a person.

Brian 55:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

You know, people people go encounter crisis and self-tabotage just to do that so that they can awaken something in themselves. So human beings are weird, man. Like it's it's the it's the best thing ever because like that's what makes our job so fun. Uh you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. People think it's like all Excel sheets and all, and we have like lots of financial planning software. It's like, yeah, but how do you actually help people connect with what they need to move forward in their life? You got to connect with their hearts, that's how they make decisions, they rationalize those decisions with their mind. Beautiful, yeah.

Brian 56:16

Go figure, you're beautiful, man. That's awesome. I you know, uh for the sake of time, I kind of want to see where we wrap this up at. Um, yeah, what you know, you dropped so much knowledge. I feel like you dropped like a massive amount of knowledge on folks. I just love it. I don't even know what to say to that. Yeah, what would you like to share with folks as before we close out our uh as our time together?

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Well, this is what I see right now as the time of this recording. Uh, if you're noticing that you're feeling really scared right now, uh usually the definition between fear, the difference between fear and like fear and anxiety versus excitement is you're feeling that way alone. Right. So when you have tension at social fabrics out there, the good news is there's catalysts around change, right? That would be the optimist view of it. And so my encouragement would be like if you're feeling scared or if you're feeling anxious, based on whatever's going on in your life, to try to find someone that you actually feel like is is willing to be there in it with you.

Brian 57:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

Find a companion, find someone you feel compassionate, and inevitably there might be someone that listens to this that doesn't have that. And um, I've I've been in moments in my life where it's like I was truly alone, et cetera. And also I I wasn't really like the beauty of being able to pray or sort of have a spiritual practice is that sort of sense of unconditional love does exist even if they're not other human beings around you, like it's presence everywhere. Uh, and so, but I know that that's not helpful when you're in that moment because it doesn't feel real. So, my encouragement would be that you most of the time don't rise above fear and isolation. It can happen, right? We've all met people that do that, but to just try to be in relationship with another and realize that if you see someone that you're labeling as we'll just say bad, that they likely feel scared too. Right. And so, you know, just like if you can see the little kid in them that's scared, not only is that gonna, or yourself, not only is that gonna help you love other people better, but it also helps you make wiser decisions and respond in a way that we probably all would like to be. Yeah, you know, and and help us maintain upward aim. So love that.

Brian 58:34

Love what thank you, thank you for that. And I and it's such it's such a important view to be shared, right? Fear and isolation and you come at a hope and community, right? Yeah, hope and community. Beautiful. All right, thank you, Clint. Thank you for today. Um we uh we'll do another podcast because there's just too much, there's just too much good stuff that you that you dropped. Thank you for listening to What Makes Us. Make sure to rate or review this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or send it to a friend who you think will enjoy this podcast. Thank you for sharing your time and see you soon.